[EL] FW: An Electoral College Tie?

[Paul Lehto]

On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 1:25 PM, Joe La Rue <joseph.e.larue at gmail.com>wrote:

> Trevor and Paul,
>
> First, obviously Paul is right: a system cannot have a goal. Rather,
> people have goals, and an implemented system should further goals. I spoke
> imprecisely, though I think everyone knew what I meant.
>

But systems DO have goals: the prison system has a goal and purposes, the
educational system has goals, etc.

The question before us is what are the proper purpose(s) *of democratic
elections*, and do these purposes or goals properly include election of the
"best" person, if the fundamental goals of our nation include, as they do,
liberty via self-government?  [The answer to that is No]


> Second, I think the goal of the people who vote for president *is *to
> elect the best person for the job. Republicans vote for Republicans because
> they believe that a Republican president will be better than the
> alternative, and Democrats do the same. As for what the Chinese Communist
> told you, Trevor, you can do what you want, but I don't put much stock in a
> Communist appraisal of our system.
>

I put a kind of "negative stock" in the Chinese Communist appraisal of our
system.  The Chinese Communist's observation that western systems reject
"best person" results-oriented philosophy in elections amounts to a
revealing self-critique on their part (from our perspective here in the
west).  It shows how the decision to privilege the idea of achieving some
sort of subjective "best person" result *over* the fundamental requirement
of free elections leads to the damage of liberty, or to the destruction of
liberty - as it does in China.   In China, they rationalize the absence of
liberty and free elections via the primacy and necessity of selecting the
"best person" for the job.

Whoever *or whatever* decides or controls the "best person" for the job IS
the sovereign.  Under free elections, the sovereign is all the co-equal
voters, because they each decide what's "best".  Under non-free systems of
governance, the voters can't be trusted to choose the "best," so to some
partial or total degree the choices are managed for them by external
standards.  (e.g., the right Communist party hack for the job).

How we understand the fundamental purposes and goals of elections is at the
heart of Citizens United as well.  In the opinion, the majority
distinguishes prior case law on First Amendment restrictions in, for
example, prison systems and educational systems, and points out that the
limited restrictions on the First Amendment that continue to be upheld are
upheld in order to uphold the fundamental PURPOSES of those systems or
institutions.

Apparently, as Joe LaRue suggests above at the top, supporters of Citizens
United implicitly (and *now expressly*, per Joe's statement) *believe that
elections, as systems, have no fundamental goal purpose*.  (And that
therefore, no substantial first amendment restrictions are ultimately
tenable in campaign finance pursuant to the general philosophy animating
Citizens United)

But Joe LaRue, in speaking more precisely, has nevertheless stated that I
am "obviously" "right."   What I'm right about is not just that only
individual voters have the "purpose" of selecting the "best", but that
elections themselves do *not* have the purpose of selecting the "*best*person".

But *elections most certainly DO have other purposes*!   One is to measure
the intent of voters after a campaign season allowing them the opportunity
to become reasonably well-informed decision-makers.

People often wrongly assume that what might be called "political
philosophy" is academic or a nicety of some kind, but in fact the political
"theory" of the purposes of elections is really at the heart of many
debates, including differences over Citizens United.

Paul Lehto, J.D.

>
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 11:45 AM, Trevor Potter <tpotter at capdale.com>wrote:
>
>> like Paul, I was struck by the assertion that the "goal" of our election
>> system was to "elect the best person for the job.".
>>
>> That may have been the goal of the drafters who conceived of  the
>> electoral college, but post G. Washington it has never had that function.
>>
>> I was recently told by a Chinese Communist Party official that the "goal"
>> for their political system was the selection of the best possible and most
>> qualified  persons to lead their country--and that they did not believe
>> that our western  democratic systems had either that goal or those results!
>> The official was quite clear that he thought there was a tension between
>> majoritarian voting systems and the selection of the "best" leaders--and
>> China knew which way they wanted to  resolve that tension....
>>
>> Trevor Potter
>>
>> Sent by Good Messaging (www.good.com)
>>
>>
>>  -----Original Message-----
>> From:   Paul Lehto [mailto:lehto.paul at gmail.com]
>> Sent:   Friday, December 16, 2011 11:19 AM Eastern Standard Time
>> To:     Joe La Rue
>> Cc:     JBoppjr at aol.com; law-election at department-lists.uci.edu;
>> BSmith at law.capital.edu
>> Subject:        Re: [EL] FW: An Electoral College Tie?
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 9:05 AM, Joe La Rue <joseph.e.larue at gmail.com
>> >wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > "[...] I think what he said was, *the goal* of a national *election* for
>> > president is *to elect the best person *for the job. The goal should not
>> > be [...]" (emphasis added)
>> >
>> >
>> >  "Elections" do not, in and of themselves, have "goals" other than the
>> following: *to objectively measure the intent of the voters* as expressed
>> by their ballots, after a process called campaigning structured such that
>> voters may become reasonably informed.
>>
>> Thus, it is a purpose of campaigns and competing media to facilitate an
>> informed electorate, because  no rational person with the best interests
>> of
>> the country in mind would want the electorate to be uninformed when they
>> are acting in their sovereign capacity to delegate their power to
>> representatives, via election.
>>
>> *Elections, in and of themselves, do not have a "purpose" or "goal" of
>> electing the "best" person for the job.  A free people, in order to be
>> considered free, must be able to make a mistake and elect the "worst"
>> person for the job* -- if that is their free, considered, choice.
>> There's
>> no alternative consistent with freedom because a populace whose choices
>> are
>> either constrained or "managed" in any way for goals or purposes other
>> than
>> simply objectively measuring the intent of the voters is a populace whose
>> freedom is being constrained.
>>
>> Consequently, while everyone is free to, for example, support a given
>> electoral system on the grounds that it "encourages a stable, two party
>> system", it is not the purpose or goal of elections or of liberty to
>> encourage a stable, two party system.  The goal of liberty is liberty.
>> All considerations named as the "goal" or "purpose" of elections that are
>> outside the scope of objectively measuring voter intent after a process of
>> reasonably informing voters via campaigning are collateral or ulterior to
>> the actual purpose of elections:  Measuring voter intent, and thereby
>> guaranteeing SELF-government by We the People.
>>
>> A freedom-loving person reserves the right to themselves to make mistakes
>> (and to take responsibility as appropriate, for those mistakes), and
>> respects and tolerates that same right with all others, including the
>> right
>> of We the People to elect the "wrong" candidate - however
>> *subjectively*one measures that quality.
>>
>> Some of the interesting discussion in this thread, on all sides, smuggles
>> into the purpose of elections things that in fact constrain the freedom of
>> We the People (no matter how good, meritorious and wise those purposes may
>> seem to be).  Whoever manages or constrains the sovereign (the voters) is
>> to that extent usurping the role of the sovereign and putting a thumb on
>> the scales of elections, to some degree or another.
>>
>> Paul Lehto, J.D.
>>
>> --
>> Paul R Lehto, J.D.
>> P.O. Box 1
>> Ishpeming, MI  49849
>> lehto.paul at gmail.com
>> 906-204-4026 (cell)
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-- 
Paul R Lehto, J.D.
P.O. Box 1
Ishpeming, MI  49849
lehto.paul at gmail.com
906-204-4026 (cell)
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