[EL] Secret signatures and secret ballots
Dan Meek
dan at meek.net
Wed Nov 2 15:15:09 PDT 2011
I have received no responses to my post.
Dan Meek
dan at meek.net
10949 S.W. 4th Ave
Portland, OR 97219 503-293-9021
866-926-9646 fax
On 11/2/2011 2:28 PM, Douglas Carver wrote:(As I noted in an earlier
comment to a different thread, I am catching up on old posts today.)
I was wondering whether anyone had an answer to Dan Meek's question
about Oregon, whose system of voting I think is ripe for massive fraud
(I keep having flashbacks to stories I have read about when people used
to give out already filled in ballots outside of polling places).
The debate on the questions posed by Eugene was very interesting -- and,
as one or two folks noted, of a welcome, engaged tone. It prompted a
question -- isn't one of the principal differences between signing a
petition and casting a vote that in the former, you have already given
up your right to secrecy? Someone is standing there, petition in hand,
probably with other volunteers (or paid gatherers) nearby, likely in a
public place such as a shopping mall or a rally, and you publicly scrawl
your name and address. Granted, your personal information is not posted
on the web for the whole country to access, but it seems that when you
sign a petition in such circumstances there would be no expectation of
privacy as you have already conceded it. I have signed a good few
petitions in my day, and I have never had an expectation of privacy.
Quite the opposite -- I always presumed that anyone who wanted could --
and should -- be able to check that I was who I said I was. (I think
Daniel Lowenstein may have made a comment related to this thought early
on, but no one seemed to have run with it.)
Douglas Carver
Santa Fe, NM
On Sat, Oct 22, 2011 at 12:08 AM, Dan Meek <dan at meek.net
<mailto:dan at meek.net>> wrote:
Ballot secrecy needs further definition. A ballot can be secret
from the government but not secret from manipulators.
For the past decade, Oregon has had ballots that are secret from
government but not secret from manipulators. All voting is my mail
(or drop-off). The completed ballots are secret from government
(assuming that the government employees and temp workers follow all
the rules), because each completed ballot is inside a sealed
"secrecy envelope." The voter inserts the secrecy envelope inside
the outer return envelope and signs the outer envelope. When the
government receives the ballot, it checks the signature on the outer
envelope. If it looks OK, the secrecy envelope is then tossed into
the pile to be opened and counted. The voter need not appear in
person anywhere and need not provide identification other than a
signature.
The ballots are not secret from manipulators, because any voter
could place his or her authentic signature on the outer envelope and
then give it, along with the ballot it came with and the secrecy
envelope, to anyone who wishes to buy votes.
The photo below shows that Oregon does not take the step of having
the signature intersect the the boundary between the envelope and
its sealed flap. Thus, the envelope can be signed without first
being sealed, which makes vote selling look easy. Even if the
signature line were placed on that boundary, a voter could sell to a
manipulator the blank ballot and the service of signing the envelope
after the manipulator completes the ballot.
I would be interested in the opinions of the list members about the
security of this arrangement.
Oregon vote envelope
Dan Meek
dan at meek.net <mailto:dan at meek.net>
10949 S.W. 4th Ave
Portland, OR 97219 503-293-9021 <tel:503-293-9021>
866-926-9646 <tel:866-926-9646> fax
On 10/21/2011 6:31 PM, Doug Hess wrote:
Sorry for the confusion ...what were the other reasons?
Doug
On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 9:16 PM, Lowenstein, Daniel
<lowenstein at law.ucla.edu> <mailto:lowenstein at law.ucla.edu> wrote:
> I did not suggest eliminating circulators and having petitions signed at government-controlled locations as a solution to possible problems of bribery and intimidation. I said I favored that change for other reasons. As it is, I tend to agree that bribery and intimidation are not likely to be widespread means for obtaining signatures. It simply isn't necessary, as Bob Stern and I showed in an article on Meyer v. Grant in the Hastings Constitutional Law Quarterly, I believe in 1988.
>
> Best,
>
> Daniel H. Lowenstein
> Director, Center for the Liberal Arts and Free Institutions (CLAFI)
> UCLA Law School
> 405 Hilgard
> Los Angeles, California 90095-1476
> 310-825-5148 <tel:310-825-5148>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From:law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu <mailto:law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu> [law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu <mailto:law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu>] On Behalf Of Doug Hess [douglasrhess at gmail.com <mailto:douglasrhess at gmail.com>]
> Sent: Friday, October 21, 2011 5:51 PM
> To:law-election at department-lists.uci.edu <mailto:law-election at department-lists.uci.edu>
> Subject: Re: [EL] Secret signatures and secret ballots
>
> One other thought: Is there any recent evidence of substantial intimidation to get people to sign or not sign? Arguments about solutions for policy problems that don't include some empirical investigation means we don't know if there is a problem nor the true nature, scale, and consequences of the problem. After all, Dan's solution (have petitions at government controlled locations) might be a solution worse than the problem.
>
> -Doug
>
> From:law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu <mailto:law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu><mailto:law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu> [law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu <mailto:law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu><mailto:law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu>] On Behalf Of Volokh, Eugene [VOLOKH at law.ucla.edu <mailto:VOLOKH at law.ucla.edu><mailto:VOLOKH at law.ucla.edu>]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 3:16 PM
> To:law-election at uci.edu <mailto:law-election at uci.edu><mailto:law-election at uci.edu>
> Subject: Re: [EL] Secret signatures and secret ballots
>
> I appreciate Dan's point, and if indeed the main reason for the secret ballot is preventing voters from being bribed to vote in favor of an initiative, then I agree that there's a difference between secrecy of the ballot and secrecy of initiative/referendum/recall signatures.
>
> But it seems to me that at least a very large part -- perhaps the largest part -- of the modern support for the secret ballot is that it lets people vote their conscience without fear of retaliation (not just from signature gatherers but also from others, including initiative opponents). This is both seen as fairer to voters, and more likely to reflect actual public sentiment, unaffected by the fear of retaliation. In this respect, the worry isn't just that people will be intimidated into signing a petition (I agree that this risk remains present regardless of whether either ballots or initiative signatures are kept secret). The worry is that people will be intimidated into not signing a petition, and not voting for the initiative.
>
> And this concern, it seems to me, counsels equally for secrecy of signatures as it does for secrecy of ballots. Again, perhaps the recall example might be especially helpful: We have a secret ballot as to candidates partly because we don't want incumbents to intimidate people into voting for them. (We also don't want challengers to do the same.) Likewise, we have a secret ballot on the recall for precisely this reason. Wouldn't having secrecy of signatures as to the recall petitions likewise serve the same goal, to pretty much the same extent? True, such secrecy wouldn't prevent intimidation of voters into *signing* the petition; but it would minimize the intimidation of voters into *not signing* the petition. And if that's so as to recalls, it seems to me it's comparably so as to initiatives and referenda.
>
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