[EL] Law-election Digest, Vol 16, Issue 3
Menzel, Ken
KMenzel at elections.il.gov
Fri Aug 3 12:38:34 PDT 2012
Death after voting by mail
Illinois law covers the situation as follows:
(10 ILCS 5/19-11) (from Ch. 46, par. 19-11)
Sec. 19-11. Whenever it shall be made to appear by due proof to the judges of election that any elector who has marked and forwarded his ballot as provided in this article has died prior to the opening of the polls on the date of the election, then the ballot of such deceased voter shall be returned by the judges of election in the same manner as provided for rejected ballots above; but the casting of the ballot of a deceased voter shall not invalidate the election.
(Source: Laws 1943, vol. 2, p. 1.)
Ken Menzel
Deputy General Counsel
Illinois State Board of Elections
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Today's Topics:
1. Texas decision on voter registration drive restrictions
(Richard Winger)
2. ELB News and Commentary 8/3/12 (Rick Hasen)
3. deaths after voting by mail (Doug Hess)
4. Re: deaths after voting by mail (Justin Levitt)
5. Re: deaths after voting by mail (Steve Kolbert)
6. Re: deaths after voting by mail (Larry Levine)
7. Re: deaths after voting by mail (Adam Morse)
8. Re: deaths after voting by mail (Ken Mayer)
9. Re: deaths after voting by mail (Lowenstein, Daniel)
10. Re: deaths after voting by mail (Doug Hess)
11. Re: deaths after voting by mail (Michael McDonald)
12. Re: deaths after voting by mail (Scarberry, Mark)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2012 14:28:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: Richard Winger <richardwinger at yahoo.com>
Subject: [EL] Texas decision on voter registration drive restrictions
To: law-election at uci.edu
Message-ID:
<1343942937.59687.YahooMailClassic at web140401.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
http://www.ballot-access.org/2012/08/02/u-s-district-court-enjoins-five-texas-restrictions-on-voter-registration-drives-including-ban-on-out-of-state-workers/
Richard Winger
415-922-9779
PO Box 470296, San Francisco Ca 94147
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Message: 2
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 07:56:53 -0700
From: Rick Hasen <rhasen at law.uci.edu>
Subject: [EL] ELB News and Commentary 8/3/12
To: "law-election at uci.edu" <law-election at uci.edu>
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Message: 3
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 11:53:32 -0400
From: Doug Hess <douglasrhess at gmail.com>
Subject: [EL] deaths after voting by mail
To: Election Law <Law-election at department-lists.uci.edu>
Message-ID:
<CAA76P+pKxAej89=td6=2oVQB6Au2EeEtN9CyLiesxCMbgAw-8Q at mail.gmail.com>
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Let's say you vote by mail and then kick the bucket before ballots are counted or before election day. Assuming election officials notice this about you and spot your ballot, do laws or regulations address counting that ballot? I assume that if you were eligible to vote when you did, that dieing before ballots are counted doesn't matter.
If an election is entirely by mail and you can get ballots 30 days in advance (is that standard?), just how many adults go six feet under in that period. I'm wondering--for Friday amusement partially--if the number or percentage is enough that the dead can determine an outcome?
Doug
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Message: 4
Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2012 09:01:26 -0700
From: Justin Levitt <levittj at lls.edu>
Subject: Re: [EL] deaths after voting by mail
To: law-election at department-lists.uci.edu
Message-ID: <501BF5D6.9050506 at lls.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
As with most all election rules, depends on the state.
In some states, the ballot is invalid (e.g., Ark. Code 7-5-416(c)). In others, it's still perfectly valid (e.g., Fla. Stat. 101.6103(8)).
Justin
On 8/3/2012 8:53 AM, Doug Hess wrote:
> Let's say you vote by mail and then kick the bucket before ballots are
> counted or before election day. Assuming election officials notice
> this about you and spot your ballot, do laws or regulations address
> counting that ballot? I assume that if you were eligible to vote when
> you did, that dieing before ballots are counted doesn't matter.
> If an election is entirely by mail and you can get ballots 30 days in
> advance (is that standard?), just how many adults go six feet under in
> that period. I'm wondering--for Friday amusement partially--if the
> number or percentage is enough that the dead can determine an outcome?
>
> Doug
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Law-election mailing list
> Law-election at department-lists.uci.edu
> http://department-lists.uci.edu/mailman/listinfo/law-election
--
Justin Levitt
Associate Professor of Law
Loyola Law School | Los Angeles
919 Albany St.
Los Angeles, CA 90015
213-736-7417
justin.levitt at lls.edu
ssrn.com/author=698321
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Message: 5
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 12:08:45 -0400
From: Steve Kolbert <steve.kolbert at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [EL] deaths after voting by mail
To: Doug Hess <douglasrhess at gmail.com>
Cc: Election Law <Law-election at department-lists.uci.edu>
Message-ID:
<CAA7gmAbJ+bZEqUsyDam7F+5To1PSy38-koY2cfj7Duy71TLHmQ at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
You can find a discussion of the applicable Virginia law in Op. Va. Att'y Gen. 10-104 (Oct. 26, 2010), available at http://www.oag.state.va.us/Opinions%20and%20Legal%20Resources/OPINIONS/2010opns/10-104-Lind.pdf
SUMMARY:
When a general registrar knows an absentee voter has died prior to election day, but after having voted by absentee ballot, the registrar must cancel that voter's registration, and the absentee ballot should not be counted; but that in those circumstances in which absentee ballots are cast prior to election day in a manner by which the absentee ballot no longer can be set aside, the general registrar who knows of the voter's death shall cancel that voter's registration, but election officials are not otherwise required to perform the impossible task of not counting the deceased voter's ballot.
Steve Kolbert
(202) 422-2588
steve.kolbert at gmail.com
@Pronounce_the_T
On Aug 3, 2012 11:54 AM, "Doug Hess" <douglasrhess at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Let's say you vote by mail and then kick the bucket before ballots are
> counted or before election day. Assuming election officials notice
> this about you and spot your ballot, do laws or regulations address
> counting that ballot? I assume that if you were eligible to vote when
> you did, that dieing before ballots are counted doesn't matter.
>
> If an election is entirely by mail and you can get ballots 30 days in
> advance (is that standard?), just how many adults go six feet under in
> that period. I'm wondering--for Friday amusement partially--if the
> number or percentage is enough that the dead can determine an outcome?
>
> Doug
>
> _______________________________________________
> Law-election mailing list
> Law-election at department-lists.uci.edu
> http://department-lists.uci.edu/mailman/listinfo/law-election
>
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Message: 6
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 09:19:54 -0700
From: "Larry Levine" <larrylevine at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [EL] deaths after voting by mail
To: "'Doug Hess'" <douglasrhess at gmail.com>, "'Election Law'"
<Law-election at department-lists.uci.edu>
Message-ID: <003b01cd7193$d14f78b0$73ee6a10$@earthlink.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
OK. Let's continue the thought. You are in the military, stationed overseas.
You get your ballot 60 days before the election, mark it and mail it in.
Then the unthinkable happens. Would we strip one of the honored dead of his or her right to vote under these circumstances. And as far as the matter of there being enough ballots cast by people who subsequently die to make a difference, what ever happened to "every vote counts"? We've seen plenty of elections decided by one or two votes. And in the quest for a two-thirds majority on some ballot measures .
Another wrinkle: a statute passes in one house of the legislature by one vote and goes on to the other house. Then one of the affirmative voters in the first house dies before the bill passes the second house and is signed into law.
As you say - it's Friday.
Larry
From: law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu
[mailto:law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu] On Behalf Of Doug Hess
Sent: Friday, August 03, 2012 8:54 AM
To: Election Law
Subject: [EL] deaths after voting by mail
Let's say you vote by mail and then kick the bucket before ballots are counted or before election day. Assuming election officials notice this about you and spot your ballot, do laws or regulations address counting that ballot? I assume that if you were eligible to vote when you did, that dieing before ballots are counted doesn't matter.
If an election is entirely by mail and you can get ballots 30 days in advance (is that standard?), just how many adults go six feet under in that period. I'm wondering--for Friday amusement partially--if the number or percentage is enough that the dead can determine an outcome?
Doug
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Message: 7
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 12:44:28 -0400
From: Adam Morse <ahmorse at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [EL] deaths after voting by mail
To: Doug Hess <douglasrhess at gmail.com>
Cc: Election Law <Law-election at department-lists.uci.edu>
Message-ID:
<CAO66Vrzpm+jP_QaMp-EOXkfCzkDGQvnWxndXdFbuCFt2pQwUaw at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
The statistics to make some educated guesses are pretty easily available.
In 2009, the U.S. death rate was 793.8 deaths per hundred thousand per year. So that means that in 30 days the death rate will be roughly one twelfth of that, so about 66 deaths per hundred thousand. Those won't be evenly distributed across different districts, because demographics differ, but it still gives us a rough guideline--maybe in a particularly elderly district, it might be 100 or 150 deaths per hundred thousand, although that's just pure guesswork on my part. And of course, even if absentee ballots are permitted 30 days in advance, not everyone will fill them out immediately, so it might be more accurate to assume people fill them out 15 days in advance. The net conclusion is that there might be .05 or .1% of the vote affected--perhaps as little as .01%, perhaps as much as .2%. But of course, that's the gross number of votes affected--the net votes affected would be much lower, because some of the deceased would have cast votes for each of the two competing candidates. So the net effect might be 10 or 20% of the gross effect. So, in districts where an election is exceedingly close--well within the "margin of litigation", at a point where miscounted votes probably substantially outnumber the margin between the candidates--it might very rarely matter whether the votes of deceased voters are counted. Note also that this assumes that all of the deceased voters would have cast absentee ballots, as in a completely vote by mail jurisdiction.
Net conclusion: hardly worth worrying about either way. Once in a blue moon it will come up, in the same way that very rarely absolute ties come up in local elections.
--Adam Morse
On Fri, Aug 3, 2012 at 11:53 AM, Doug Hess <douglasrhess at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Let's say you vote by mail and then kick the bucket before ballots are
> counted or before election day. Assuming election officials notice
> this about you and spot your ballot, do laws or regulations address
> counting that ballot? I assume that if you were eligible to vote when
> you did, that dieing before ballots are counted doesn't matter.
>
> If an election is entirely by mail and you can get ballots 30 days in
> advance (is that standard?), just how many adults go six feet under in
> that period. I'm wondering--for Friday amusement partially--if the
> number or percentage is enough that the dead can determine an outcome?
>
> Doug
>
> _______________________________________________
> Law-election mailing list
> Law-election at department-lists.uci.edu
> http://department-lists.uci.edu/mailman/listinfo/law-election
>
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Message: 8
Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2012 11:59:25 -0500
From: Ken Mayer <kmayer at polisci.wisc.edu>
Subject: Re: [EL] deaths after voting by mail
To: "'Steve Kolbert'" <steve.kolbert at gmail.com>, "'Doug Hess'"
<douglasrhess at gmail.com>
Cc: 'Election Law' <Law-election at department-lists.uci.edu>
Message-ID: <01bf01cd7199$5643eec0$02cbcc40$@polisci.wisc.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Short answer: not enough votes to worry about, there's nothing that could be done if there were, and even if something could be done, it wouldn't be right. By any reasonable definition, a vote is a vote when it is cast, no matter what happens to the voter subsequently.
In Oregon, according to the Public Health division, about 2,500-2,900 people die in a typical month <http://public.health.oregon.gov/BirthDeathCertificates/VitalStatistics/Fina
lData/Documents/10/deathmo.pdf> , with about 98% of those deaths occurring in the voting age population <http://public.health.oregon.gov/BirthDeathCertificates/VitalStatistics/Fina
lData/Documents/10/deathage.pdf> . Turnout as a percentage of VAP in 2008
was 63% according to Michael McDonald
<http://elections.gmu.edu/Turnout_2008G.html> 's United States Election Project. If we assume that deaths over a month are evenly distributed, and that votes are cast roughly evenly over the month, that gives an estimated approximate upper limit (back of the envelope calculation; the actual numbers will be slightly different, but not by enough to worry about) of the number of votes potentially cast by people who died before election day as:
2,900*.98*.63*.5 = 895 votes
The key quantity here isn't this number, but the margin of victory for the winning candidate among these voters. An election would have to be pretty close for this to make a difference, but let's say these voters went 60%-40% for a candidate in a two candidate race. That 20% margin reduces this 895 votes to 179 votes. That could make a difference in a really tight race, but there aren't many statewide races decided by this margin.
But it doesn't really make any difference, because for these votes to be rejected, you'd have to hang on to every vote until you got confirmation that the voter had actually died, which is not workable.
This isn't different than a voter who casts a ballot on election day, but who dies (or moves to another state) before the results are certified.
Ken Mayer
Kenneth R. Mayer
Professor, Department of Political Science
Affiliate Faculty, La Follette School of Public Affairs
University of Wisconsin - Madison
110 North Hall/1050 Bascom Mall
Madison, WI 53706
(608) 263-2286 (voice)/ (608) 265-2663 (fax)
From: law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu
[mailto:law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu] On Behalf Of Steve Kolbert
Sent: Friday, August 03, 2012 11:09 AM
To: Doug Hess
Cc: Election Law
Subject: Re: [EL] deaths after voting by mail
You can find a discussion of the applicable Virginia law in Op. Va. Att'y Gen. 10-104 (Oct. 26, 2010), available at http://www.oag.state.va.us/Opinions%20and%20Legal%20Resources/OPINIONS/2010o
pns/10-104-Lind.pdf
SUMMARY:
When a general registrar knows an absentee voter has died prior to election day, but after having voted by absentee ballot, the registrar must cancel that voter's registration, and the absentee ballot should not be counted; but that in those circumstances in which absentee ballots are cast prior to election day in a manner by which the absentee ballot no longer can be set aside, the general registrar who knows of the voter's death shall cancel that voter's registration, but election officials are not otherwise required to perform the impossible task of not counting the deceased voter's ballot.
Steve Kolbert
(202) 422-2588
steve.kolbert at gmail.com
@Pronounce_the_T
On Aug 3, 2012 11:54 AM, "Doug Hess" <douglasrhess at gmail.com> wrote:
Let's say you vote by mail and then kick the bucket before ballots are counted or before election day. Assuming election officials notice this about you and spot your ballot, do laws or regulations address counting that ballot? I assume that if you were eligible to vote when you did, that dieing before ballots are counted doesn't matter.
If an election is entirely by mail and you can get ballots 30 days in advance (is that standard?), just how many adults go six feet under in that period. I'm wondering--for Friday amusement partially--if the number or percentage is enough that the dead can determine an outcome?
Doug
_______________________________________________
Law-election mailing list
Law-election at department-lists.uci.edu
http://department-lists.uci.edu/mailman/listinfo/law-election
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Message: 9
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 11:09:12 -0700
From: "Lowenstein, Daniel" <lowenstein at law.ucla.edu>
Subject: Re: [EL] deaths after voting by mail
To: Ken Mayer <kmayer at polisci.wisc.edu>, "'Steve Kolbert'"
<steve.kolbert at gmail.com>, "'Doug Hess'" <douglasrhess at gmail.com>
Cc: 'Election Law' <Law-election at department-lists.uci.edu>
Message-ID:
<E7AAEC684F9E3641B8CFC2B9A0BD965A01EF92C6345A at UCLAWE2K7.lawnet.lcl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
I am reminded of G.K. Chesterton, who observed that some so-called democrats (small "d," of course) took pride in believing that participation in government should not be determined by the accident of birth, but went further by insisting that participation should not be determined by the accident of death.
Best,
Daniel H. Lowenstein
Director, Center for the Liberal Arts and Free Institutions (CLAFI)
UCLA Law School
405 Hilgard
Los Angeles, California 90095-1476
310-825-5148
________________________________
From: law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu [law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu] On Behalf Of Ken Mayer [kmayer at polisci.wisc.edu]
Sent: Friday, August 03, 2012 9:59 AM
To: 'Steve Kolbert'; 'Doug Hess'
Cc: 'Election Law'
Subject: Re: [EL] deaths after voting by mail
Short answer: not enough votes to worry about, there?s nothing that could be done if there were, and even if something could be done, it wouldn?t be right. By any reasonable definition, a vote is a vote when it is cast, no matter what happens to the voter subsequently.
In Oregon, according to the Public Health division, about 2,500-2,900 people die in a typical month<http://public.health.oregon.gov/BirthDeathCertificates/VitalStatistics/FinalData/Documents/10/deathmo.pdf>, with about 98% of those deaths occurring in the voting age population<http://public.health.oregon.gov/BirthDeathCertificates/VitalStatistics/FinalData/Documents/10/deathage.pdf>. Turnout as a percentage of VAP in 2008 was 63% according to Michael McDonald?s United States Election Project<http://elections.gmu.edu/Turnout_2008G.html>. If we assume that deaths over a month are evenly distributed, and that votes are cast roughly evenly over the month, that gives an estimated approximate upper limit (back of the envelope calculation; the actual numbers will be slightly different, but not by enough to worry about) of the number of votes potentially cast by people who died before election day as:
2,900*.98*.63*.5 = 895 votes
The key quantity here isn?t this number, but the margin of victory for the winning candidate among these voters. An election would have to be pretty close for this to make a difference, but let?s say these voters went 60%-40% for a candidate in a two candidate race. That 20% margin reduces this 895 votes to 179 votes. That could make a difference in a really tight race, but there aren?t many statewide races decided by this margin.
But it doesn?t really make any difference, because for these votes to be rejected, you?d have to hang on to every vote until you got confirmation that the voter had actually died, which is not workable.
This isn?t different than a voter who casts a ballot on election day, but who dies (or moves to another state) before the results are certified.
Ken Mayer
Kenneth R. Mayer
Professor, Department of Political Science Affiliate Faculty, La Follette School of Public Affairs University of Wisconsin - Madison 110 North Hall/1050 Bascom Mall Madison, WI 53706
(608) 263-2286 (voice)/ (608) 265-2663 (fax)
From: law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu [mailto:law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu] On Behalf Of Steve Kolbert
Sent: Friday, August 03, 2012 11:09 AM
To: Doug Hess
Cc: Election Law
Subject: Re: [EL] deaths after voting by mail
You can find a discussion of the applicable Virginia law in Op. Va. Att'y Gen. 10-104 (Oct. 26, 2010), available at http://www.oag.state.va.us/Opinions%20and%20Legal%20Resources/OPINIONS/2010opns/10-104-Lind.pdf
SUMMARY:
When a general registrar knows an absentee voter has died prior to election day, but after having voted by absentee ballot, the registrar must cancel that voter's registration, and the absentee ballot should not be counted; but that in those circumstances in which absentee ballots are cast prior to election day in a manner by which the absentee ballot no longer can be set aside, the general registrar who knows of the voter's death shall cancel that voter's registration, but election officials are not otherwise required to perform the impossible task of not counting the deceased voter's ballot.
Steve Kolbert
(202) 422-2588
steve.kolbert at gmail.com<mailto:steve.kolbert at gmail.com>
@Pronounce_the_T
On Aug 3, 2012 11:54 AM, "Doug Hess" <douglasrhess at gmail.com<mailto:douglasrhess at gmail.com>> wrote:
Let's say you vote by mail and then kick the bucket before ballots are counted or before election day. Assuming election officials notice this about you and spot your ballot, do laws or regulations address counting that ballot? I assume that if you were eligible to vote when you did, that dieing before ballots are counted doesn't matter.
If an election is entirely by mail and you can get ballots 30 days in advance (is that standard?), just how many adults go six feet under in that period. I'm wondering--for Friday amusement partially--if the number or percentage is enough that the dead can determine an outcome?
Doug
_______________________________________________
Law-election mailing list
Law-election at department-lists.uci.edu<mailto:Law-election at department-lists.uci.edu>
http://department-lists.uci.edu/mailman/listinfo/law-election
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 14:28:28 -0400
From: Doug Hess <douglasrhess at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [EL] deaths after voting by mail
To: "Lowenstein, Daniel" <lowenstein at law.ucla.edu>
Cc: Election Law <Law-election at department-lists.uci.edu>
Message-ID:
<CAA76P+r71qrRk9yhSnfGgg3y72ky6Tbf7SrTGy_LNOhwJxrKCw at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
Well, we can go one step further: in cost-benefit analysis there are also debates about what future citizens may value (not the same as voting, but for a Friday we'll count expressions of economic preferences as "voice"). So, if you destroy something that cannot be restored (e.g., extinction of an animal, bulldozing a pristine forest, or putting a town on a natural landmark) what is the cost to future generations locked in by your decision? Or just say nuts to them? :)
Douglas R. Hess, PhD
Washington, DC
202-955-5869
douglasrhess at gmail.com
The information contained in this email is confidential and may contain proprietary information. It is meant solely for the intended recipient(s).
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On Fri, Aug 3, 2012 at 2:09 PM, Lowenstein, Daniel
<lowenstein at law.ucla.edu>wrote:
> I am reminded of G.K. Chesterton, who observed that some
> so-called democrats (small "d," of course) took pride in believing
> that participation in government should not be determined by the
> accident of birth, but went further by insisting that participation
> should not be determined by the accident of death.
>
> Best,
>
> Daniel H. Lowenstein
> Director, Center for the Liberal Arts and Free
> Institutions
> (CLAFI)
> UCLA Law School
> 405 Hilgard
> Los Angeles, California 90095-1476
> 310-825-5148
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu [
> law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu] On Behalf Of Ken Mayer
> [ kmayer at polisci.wisc.edu]
> Sent: Friday, August 03, 2012 9:59 AM
> To: 'Steve Kolbert'; 'Doug Hess'
> Cc: 'Election Law'
> Subject: Re: [EL] deaths after voting by mail
>
> Short answer: not enough votes to worry about, there?s nothing that
> could be done if there were, and even if something could be done, it
> wouldn?t be right. By any reasonable definition, a vote is a vote
> when it is cast, no matter what happens to the voter subsequently.
>
> In Oregon, according to the Public Health division, about 2,500-2,900
> people die in a typical month<
> http://public.health.oregon.gov/BirthDeathCertificates/VitalStatistics
> /FinalData/Documents/10/deathmo.pdf>,
> with about 98% of those deaths occurring in the voting age population<
> http://public.health.oregon.gov/BirthDeathCertificates/VitalStatistics/FinalData/Documents/10/deathage.pdf>.
> Turnout as a percentage of VAP in 2008 was 63% according to Michael
> McDonald?s United States Election Project<
> http://elections.gmu.edu/Turnout_2008G.html>. If we assume that
> deaths over a month are evenly distributed, and that votes are cast
> roughly evenly over the month, that gives an estimated approximate
> upper limit (back of the envelope calculation; the actual numbers
> will be slightly different, but not by enough to worry about) of the
> number of votes potentially cast by people who died before election day as:
>
> 2,900*.98*.63*.5 = 895 votes
>
> The key quantity here isn?t this number, but the margin of victory for
> the winning candidate among these voters. An election would have to
> be pretty close for this to make a difference, but let?s say these
> voters went 60%-40% for a candidate in a two candidate race. That 20%
> margin reduces this 895 votes to 179 votes. That could make a
> difference in a really tight race, but there aren?t many statewide races decided by this margin.
>
> But it doesn?t really make any difference, because for these votes to
> be rejected, you?d have to hang on to every vote until you got
> confirmation that the voter had actually died, which is not workable.
>
> This isn?t different than a voter who casts a ballot on election day,
> but who dies (or moves to another state) before the results are certified.
>
> Ken Mayer
>
>
> Kenneth R. Mayer
> Professor, Department of Political Science Affiliate Faculty, La
> Follette School of Public Affairs University of Wisconsin - Madison
> 110 North Hall/1050 Bascom Mall Madison, WI 53706
> (608) 263-2286 (voice)/ (608) 265-2663 (fax)
>
>
>
>
> From: law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu [mailto:
> law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu] On Behalf Of Steve Kolbert
> Sent: Friday, August 03, 2012 11:09 AM
> To: Doug Hess
> Cc: Election Law
> Subject: Re: [EL] deaths after voting by mail
>
>
> You can find a discussion of the applicable Virginia law in Op. Va. Att'y
> Gen. 10-104 (Oct. 26, 2010), available at
> http://www.oag.state.va.us/Opinions%20and%20Legal%20Resources/OPINIONS/2010opns/10-104-Lind.pdf
>
> SUMMARY:
> When a general registrar knows an absentee voter has died prior to
> election day, but after having voted by absentee ballot, the registrar must
> cancel that voter's registration, and the absentee ballot should not be
> counted; but that in those circumstances in which absentee ballots are cast
> prior to election day in a manner by which the absentee ballot no longer
> can be set aside, the general registrar who knows of the voter's death
> shall cancel that voter's registration, but election officials are not
> otherwise required to perform the impossible task of not counting the
> deceased voter's ballot.
>
> Steve Kolbert
> (202) 422-2588
> steve.kolbert at gmail.com<mailto:steve.kolbert at gmail.com>
> @Pronounce_the_T
> On Aug 3, 2012 11:54 AM, "Doug Hess" <douglasrhess at gmail.com<mailto:
> douglasrhess at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Let's say you vote by mail and then kick the bucket before ballots are
> counted or before election day. Assuming election officials notice this
> about you and spot your ballot, do laws or regulations address counting
> that ballot? I assume that if you were eligible to vote when you did, that
> dieing before ballots are counted doesn't matter.
>
> If an election is entirely by mail and you can get ballots 30 days in
> advance (is that standard?), just how many adults go six feet under in that
> period. I'm wondering--for Friday amusement partially--if the number or
> percentage is enough that the dead can determine an outcome?
>
> Doug
>
> _______________________________________________
> Law-election mailing list
> Law-election at department-lists.uci.edu<mailto:
> Law-election at department-lists.uci.edu>
> http://department-lists.uci.edu/mailman/listinfo/law-election
>
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Message: 11
Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2012 14:30:24 -0400
From: Michael McDonald <mmcdon at gmu.edu>
Subject: Re: [EL] deaths after voting by mail
To: "'Election Law'" <Law-election at department-lists.uci.edu>
Message-ID: <007701cd71a6$0c29d3b0$247d7b10$@edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
I'm just a ballot, and I'm only a ballot, and I'm sitting in an envelope
Well it's a long, long way to the election office
So many pitfalls that I might not get off them
But I hope and I pray that someday
I will make election day
but today I am still just a ballot.
Congratulations ballot! You've become a vote!
============
Dr. Michael P. McDonald
Associate Professor, George Mason University
Non-Resident Senior Fellow, Brookings Institution
Mailing address:
(o) 703-993-4191 George Mason University
(f) 703-993-1399 Dept. of Public and International Affairs
mmcdon at gmu.edu 4400 University Drive - 3F4
http://elections.gmu.edu Fairfax, VA 22030-4444
-----Original Message-----
From: law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu
[mailto:law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu] On Behalf Of
Lowenstein, Daniel
Sent: Friday, August 03, 2012 2:09 PM
To: Ken Mayer; 'Steve Kolbert'; 'Doug Hess'
Cc: 'Election Law'
Subject: Re: [EL] deaths after voting by mail
I am reminded of G.K. Chesterton, who observed that some so-called
democrats (small "d," of course) took pride in believing that participation
in government should not be determined by the accident of birth, but went
further by insisting that participation should not be determined by the
accident of death.
Best,
Daniel H. Lowenstein
Director, Center for the Liberal Arts and Free Institutions
(CLAFI)
UCLA Law School
405 Hilgard
Los Angeles, California 90095-1476
310-825-5148
________________________________
From: law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu
[law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu] On Behalf Of Ken Mayer
[kmayer at polisci.wisc.edu]
Sent: Friday, August 03, 2012 9:59 AM
To: 'Steve Kolbert'; 'Doug Hess'
Cc: 'Election Law'
Subject: Re: [EL] deaths after voting by mail
Short answer: not enough votes to worry about, there's nothing that could be
done if there were, and even if something could be done, it wouldn't be
right. By any reasonable definition, a vote is a vote when it is cast, no
matter what happens to the voter subsequently.
In Oregon, according to the Public Health division, about 2,500-2,900 people
die in a typical
month<http://public.health.oregon.gov/BirthDeathCertificates/VitalStatistics
/FinalData/Documents/10/deathmo.pdf>, with about 98% of those deaths
occurring in the voting age
population<http://public.health.oregon.gov/BirthDeathCertificates/VitalStati
stics/FinalData/Documents/10/deathage.pdf>. Turnout as a percentage of VAP
in 2008 was 63% according to Michael McDonald's United States Election
Project<http://elections.gmu.edu/Turnout_2008G.html>. If we assume that
deaths over a month are evenly distributed, and that votes are cast roughly
evenly over the month, that gives an estimated approximate upper limit
(back of the envelope calculation; the actual numbers will be slightly
different, but not by enough to worry about) of the number of votes
potentially cast by people who died before election day as:
2,900*.98*.63*.5 = 895 votes
The key quantity here isn't this number, but the margin of victory for the
winning candidate among these voters. An election would have to be pretty
close for this to make a difference, but let's say these voters went 60%-40%
for a candidate in a two candidate race. That 20% margin reduces this 895
votes to 179 votes. That could make a difference in a really tight race,
but there aren't many statewide races decided by this margin.
But it doesn't really make any difference, because for these votes to be
rejected, you'd have to hang on to every vote until you got confirmation
that the voter had actually died, which is not workable.
This isn't different than a voter who casts a ballot on election day, but
who dies (or moves to another state) before the results are certified.
Ken Mayer
Kenneth R. Mayer
Professor, Department of Political Science Affiliate Faculty, La Follette
School of Public Affairs University of Wisconsin - Madison
110 North Hall/1050 Bascom Mall
Madison, WI 53706
(608) 263-2286 (voice)/ (608) 265-2663 (fax)
From: law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu
[mailto:law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu] On Behalf Of Steve
Kolbert
Sent: Friday, August 03, 2012 11:09 AM
To: Doug Hess
Cc: Election Law
Subject: Re: [EL] deaths after voting by mail
You can find a discussion of the applicable Virginia law in Op. Va. Att'y
Gen. 10-104 (Oct. 26, 2010), available at
http://www.oag.state.va.us/Opinions%20and%20Legal%20Resources/OPINIONS/2010o
pns/10-104-Lind.pdf
SUMMARY:
When a general registrar knows an absentee voter has died prior to election
day, but after having voted by absentee ballot, the registrar must cancel
that voter's registration, and the absentee ballot should not be counted;
but that in those circumstances in which absentee ballots are cast prior to
election day in a manner by which the absentee ballot no longer can be set
aside, the general registrar who knows of the voter's death shall cancel
that voter's registration, but election officials are not otherwise required
to perform the impossible task of not counting the deceased voter's ballot.
Steve Kolbert
(202) 422-2588
steve.kolbert at gmail.com<mailto:steve.kolbert at gmail.com>
@Pronounce_the_T
On Aug 3, 2012 11:54 AM, "Doug Hess"
<douglasrhess at gmail.com<mailto:douglasrhess at gmail.com>> wrote:
Let's say you vote by mail and then kick the bucket before ballots are
counted or before election day. Assuming election officials notice this
about you and spot your ballot, do laws or regulations address counting that
ballot? I assume that if you were eligible to vote when you did, that dieing
before ballots are counted doesn't matter.
If an election is entirely by mail and you can get ballots 30 days in
advance (is that standard?), just how many adults go six feet under in that
period. I'm wondering--for Friday amusement partially--if the number or
percentage is enough that the dead can determine an outcome?
Doug
_______________________________________________
Law-election mailing list
Law-election at department-lists.uci.edu<mailto:Law-election at department-lists.u
ci.edu>
http://department-lists.uci.edu/mailman/listinfo/law-election
_______________________________________________
Law-election mailing list
Law-election at department-lists.uci.edu
http://department-lists.uci.edu/mailman/listinfo/law-election
------------------------------
Message: 12
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 11:36:38 -0700
From: "Scarberry, Mark" <Mark.Scarberry at pepperdine.edu>
Subject: Re: [EL] deaths after voting by mail
To: Doug Hess <douglasrhess at gmail.com>, "Lowenstein, Daniel"
<lowenstein at law.ucla.edu>
Cc: Election Law <Law-election at department-lists.uci.edu>
Message-ID:
<0C2E309B4F3A894F859CD79B9AB3279A123968832D at LULI.pepperdine.ad.pepperdine.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Or incurring of debts or creation of effectively-nonrepealable entitlement programs that they will have to pay for.
From: law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu [mailto:law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu] On Behalf Of Doug Hess
Sent: Friday, August 03, 2012 11:28 AM
To: Lowenstein, Daniel
Cc: Election Law
Subject: Re: [EL] deaths after voting by mail
Well, we can go one step further: in cost-benefit analysis there are also debates about what future citizens may value (not the same as voting, but for a Friday we'll count expressions of economic preferences as "voice"). So, if you destroy something that cannot be restored (e.g., extinction of an animal, bulldozing a pristine forest, or putting a town on a natural landmark) what is the cost to future generations locked in by your decision? Or just say nuts to them? :)
Douglas R. Hess, PhD
Washington, DC
202-955-5869
douglasrhess at gmail.com<mailto:douglasrhess at gmail.com>
The information contained in this email is confidential and may contain proprietary information. It is meant solely for the intended recipient(s). Access to this email by anyone else is unauthorized. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or any action taken or omitted in reliance on this is prohibited and may be unlawful.
On Fri, Aug 3, 2012 at 2:09 PM, Lowenstein, Daniel <lowenstein at law.ucla.edu<mailto:lowenstein at law.ucla.edu>> wrote:
I am reminded of G.K. Chesterton, who observed that some so-called democrats (small "d," of course) took pride in believing that participation in government should not be determined by the accident of birth, but went further by insisting that participation should not be determined by the accident of death.
Best,
Daniel H. Lowenstein
Director, Center for the Liberal Arts and Free Institutions (CLAFI)
UCLA Law School
405 Hilgard
Los Angeles, California 90095-1476
310-825-5148<tel:310-825-5148>
________________________________
From: law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu<mailto:law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu> [law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu<mailto:law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu>] On Behalf Of Ken Mayer [kmayer at polisci.wisc.edu<mailto:kmayer at polisci.wisc.edu>]
Sent: Friday, August 03, 2012 9:59 AM
To: 'Steve Kolbert'; 'Doug Hess'
Cc: 'Election Law'
Subject: Re: [EL] deaths after voting by mail
Short answer: not enough votes to worry about, there's nothing that could be done if there were, and even if something could be done, it wouldn't be right. By any reasonable definition, a vote is a vote when it is cast, no matter what happens to the voter subsequently.
In Oregon, according to the Public Health division, about 2,500-2,900 people die in a typical month<http://public.health.oregon.gov/BirthDeathCertificates/VitalStatistics/FinalData/Documents/10/deathmo.pdf>, with about 98% of those deaths occurring in the voting age population<http://public.health.oregon.gov/BirthDeathCertificates/VitalStatistics/FinalData/Documents/10/deathage.pdf>. Turnout as a percentage of VAP in 2008 was 63% according to Michael McDonald's United States Election Project<http://elections.gmu.edu/Turnout_2008G.html>. If we assume that deaths over a month are evenly distributed, and that votes are cast roughly evenly over the month, that gives an estimated approximate upper limit (back of the envelope calculation; the actual numbers will be slightly different, but not by enough to worry about) of the number of votes potentially cast by people who died before election day as:
2,900*.98*.63*.5 = 895 votes
The key quantity here isn't this number, but the margin of victory for the winning candidate among these voters. An election would have to be pretty close for this to make a difference, but let's say these voters went 60%-40% for a candidate in a two candidate race. That 20% margin reduces this 895 votes to 179 votes. That could make a difference in a really tight race, but there aren't many statewide races decided by this margin.
But it doesn't really make any difference, because for these votes to be rejected, you'd have to hang on to every vote until you got confirmation that the voter had actually died, which is not workable.
This isn't different than a voter who casts a ballot on election day, but who dies (or moves to another state) before the results are certified.
Ken Mayer
Kenneth R. Mayer
Professor, Department of Political Science
Affiliate Faculty, La Follette School of Public Affairs
University of Wisconsin - Madison
110 North Hall/1050 Bascom Mall
Madison, WI 53706
(608) 263-2286 (voice)/ (608) 265-2663 (fax)
From: law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu<mailto:law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu> [mailto:law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu<mailto:law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu>] On Behalf Of Steve Kolbert
Sent: Friday, August 03, 2012 11:09 AM
To: Doug Hess
Cc: Election Law
Subject: Re: [EL] deaths after voting by mail
You can find a discussion of the applicable Virginia law in Op. Va. Att'y Gen. 10-104 (Oct. 26, 2010), available at http://www.oag.state.va.us/Opinions%20and%20Legal%20Resources/OPINIONS/2010opns/10-104-Lind.pdf
SUMMARY:
When a general registrar knows an absentee voter has died prior to election day, but after having voted by absentee ballot, the registrar must cancel that voter's registration, and the absentee ballot should not be counted; but that in those circumstances in which absentee ballots are cast prior to election day in a manner by which the absentee ballot no longer can be set aside, the general registrar who knows of the voter's death shall cancel that voter's registration, but election officials are not otherwise required to perform the impossible task of not counting the deceased voter's ballot.
Steve Kolbert
(202) 422-2588<tel:%28202%29%20422-2588>
steve.kolbert at gmail.com<mailto:steve.kolbert at gmail.com><mailto:steve.kolbert at gmail.com<mailto:steve.kolbert at gmail.com>>
@Pronounce_the_T
On Aug 3, 2012 11:54 AM, "Doug Hess" <douglasrhess at gmail.com<mailto:douglasrhess at gmail.com><mailto:douglasrhess at gmail.com<mailto:douglasrhess at gmail.com>>> wrote:
Let's say you vote by mail and then kick the bucket before ballots are counted or before election day. Assuming election officials notice this about you and spot your ballot, do laws or regulations address counting that ballot? I assume that if you were eligible to vote when you did, that dieing before ballots are counted doesn't matter.
If an election is entirely by mail and you can get ballots 30 days in advance (is that standard?), just how many adults go six feet under in that period. I'm wondering--for Friday amusement partially--if the number or percentage is enough that the dead can determine an outcome?
Doug
_______________________________________________
Law-election mailing list
Law-election at department-lists.uci.edu<mailto:Law-election at department-lists.uci.edu><mailto:Law-election at department-lists.uci.edu<mailto:Law-election at department-lists.uci.edu>>
http://department-lists.uci.edu/mailman/listinfo/law-election
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