[EL] Check out Unions ready to send volunteers out for Obama | Fox News

[Chambers, Hank]

It appears that, at the most, any in-kind contribution would be the value of the canvass training, not the value of the volunteers' time spent canvassing.

-Hank

Henry L. Chambers, Jr.
Professor of Law
University of Richmond School of Law
28 Westhampton Way
Richmond, Va. 23173
(804) 289-8199
hchamber at richmond.edu<mailto:hchamber at richmond.edu>

________________________________
From: law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu [law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu] on behalf of Joe La Rue [joseph.e.larue at gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2012 11:01 AM
To: demesqnyc at aol.com
Cc: law-election at uci.edu; BSmith at law.capital.edu
Subject: Re: [EL] Check out Unions ready to send volunteers out for Obama | Fox News

But that isn't really what's happening here, is it? Isn't it rather that a union boss has organized it? He's at least issued the call for it, and pledged that his union will do it. So this is not truly the same as if a bunch of people, on their own, decided to walk for Obama. That is not what happened here. The union is providing a valuable service to the campaign, without being compensated fair market value. But because it is a union doing it, the reform community does not object.

On Aug 12, 2012, at 7:35 AM, demesqnyc at aol.com<mailto:demesqnyc at aol.com> wrote:

Haven't we overlooked the fact that the "donation" in this case is not by the  union, but by each individual voter going out and volunteering their time?  It  is the classic example of the small donation by a large mass of people that we all profess to want to encourage in our elections.

Howard Leib
Candidate for New York State Senate, 51st Senatorial District


-----Original Message-----
From: Smith, Brad <BSmith at law.capital.edu<mailto:BSmith at law.capital.edu>>
To: mmcdon <mmcdon at gmu.edu<mailto:mmcdon at gmu.edu>>; law-election <law-election at uci.edu<mailto:law-election at uci.edu>>
Sent: Sat, Aug 11, 2012 5:39 pm
Subject: Re: [EL] Check out Unions ready to send volunteers out for Obama | Fox News

Michael has made an assertion several times that I think is incorrect and I guess I'll address it. Michael says that the harassment argument "treats money differently than other forms of speech."

This, I think, is wrong. Anonymous speech is protected in a host of ways. For example, many states journalism shield laws that protect journalists from revealing their sources; in other words, sources can remain anonymous. Even where such laws do not exist, I am not aware of any state that requires public revelation of sources other than in the context of legitimate criminal investigations and the the like. Magazines and newspapers will even occasionally publish op-eds by persons under pseudonyms or anonymously. Persons can place comments all over the internet anonymously, and a great many bloggers, some of reasonable prominence, have blogged under pseudonyms. Callers to C-Span and other radio and television shows remain anonymous. Harry Reid has no requirement to reveal the name of the mysterious "Bain investor" who apparently has had access to Mitt Romney's tax returns but, for whatever reasons, chooses not to come forward beyond his conversation with Harry. Let us admit, that if Reid's not just making it up, this guy is pretty influential.

Persons can anonymously post notices, including political notices, in public places. Those union member or Planned Parenthood volunteers who canvass neighborhoods are protected by the Constitution from having to reveal their names, let alone their addresses and employers. See Thomas v. Collins; Watchtower Bible & Tract Society v. Village of Stratton.

"Anonymity," as it is used in this discussion, doesn't mean that nobody knows who the speaker is. Obviously, somebody does - somebody collects and cashes the check of the billionaires and trillionaires, and the citizens of much more average means, who write checks big and small.

Obviously, some forms of political speech and involvement require a general public revelation. But only in the case of financial participation does the law require one to publicly disclose one's name, address, and employment. As Michael notes himself, most volunteer activity is not subject to compulsory disclosure. This doesn't mean that no one will know about, but it does make it much less likely that persons will learn about the participation. Some types of speech allow a greater degree of privacy than others. For example, if one agrees to film an endorsement for a candidate, there won't be much anonymity. If, on the other hand, one marches in a protest, some might see that person, and the person might be caught on film; but generally, the participant is "anonymous," one of a crowd - not forced to broadcast his or her participation to the world unless desired. And if the person wishes to make GOTV calls or stuff envelopes from HQ, he or she will remain anonymous to the world outside the campaign - just like a financial donor would but for compulsory disclosure laws.

Political and policy consultants can communicate anonymously with candidates in ways that might help them win, and they can do so even if they are CEOs of Fortune 500 companies.

The vast majority of political activity in the country goes on "anonymously," in the sense that there is no government law requiring its disclosure, and the actor or speaker is able to hide his identity to the extent practical and desired.

It is interesting to me that Mike would require public disclosure of certain volunteer activity. I'm pretty sure I would take the other side in that debate, although never say never, not knowing what hypos Mike might create, or what real world scenarios may appear. But Mike's starting premise strikes me as wrong. Critics of excessive disclosure generally want the government to bear the burden of demonstrating the necessity of compulsory disclosuree, and would otherwise treat it as other political speech is treated - as anonymous as the speakers cares to, and can, make it.

Bradley A. Smith
Josiah H. Blackmore II/Shirley M. Nault
   Professor of Law
Capital University Law School
303 E. Broad St.
Columbus, OH 43215
614.236.6317
http://law.capital.edu/faculty/bios/bsmith.aspx

________________________________________
From: law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu<mailto:law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu> [law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu<mailto:law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu>] on behalf of Michael McDonald [mmcdon at gmu.edu<mailto:mmcdon at gmu.edu>]
Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 4:38 PM
To: law-election at uci.edu<mailto:law-election at uci.edu>
Subject: Re: [EL] Check out Unions ready to send volunteers out for Obama | Fox News

In numerous past exchanges, we have heard from Jim Bopp and others that
anonymity is the overriding factor for opposing campaign finance regulation,
so that a person could not be subject to harassment. Yet, in this example a
union volunteer’s speech has no anonymity. I am heartened that we may
finally have gotten past the harassment argument that treats money
differently than other forms of speech.

A concern for the supporters of campaign finance regulation is corrupting
influence of money. I think Jim makes a valid point that we should have a
discussion if in-kind donations should be considered similar to monetary
donations for their corrupting influence and subject to disclosure.
Certainly, I believe that the money that the unions have contributed to
organizing the canvassing effort should be disclosed (has it not?) if
supporting the campaign and not, say, targeted at issues to increase union
membership. But the organizing is not an in-kind contribution from a
volunteer, although it seems like it is being conflated with it.

If we are to say that an in-kind contribution originating from canvassing
should be disclosed, then that raises some interesting questions. First, I
am not convinced that door-to-door canvassing by a volunteer should be given
a monetary value equal to a paid staffer since in the latter instance
someone has to be induced to do something that they would not otherwise do,
but I am willing to stipulate it has value to a campaign. If as a volunteer
I knock on a door but no one is home, does that count as an in-kind
contribution to the campaign? Does the time walking from door to door count?
I.e., is it the act of speaking that counts or should all activities that
lead to the speech count? If I speak to my neighbor over the fence or
discuss politics at a poker game, should that trigger disclosure? Should we
limit the speech to canvassing, or should it include activities like writing
an e-mail or a blog comment? How are we to monitor such activities for
compliance with disclosure, especially in light of the Obama campaign
releasing their canvassing app that requires minimal contact between the
campaign and volunteer? And what specific speech should be disclosed, should
it be only those that invoke the magic words asking for a vote? It strikes
me that the minimal monetary value of volunteering balanced against these
questions should weigh in favor of not disclosing volunteer canvassing.
However, I do think there should be a threshold of volunteer activity that
should lead to disclosure, such as an expert volunteering their specialized
skills to aid a campaign.

============
Dr. Michael P. McDonald
Associate Professor, George Mason University
Non-Resident Senior Fellow, Brookings Institution

Mailing address:
(o) 703-993-4191 George Mason University
(f) 703-993-1399 Dept. of Public and International Affairs
mmcdon at gmu.edu<mailto:mmcdon at gmu.edu> 4400 University Drive - 3F4
http://elections.gmu.edu Fairfax, VA 22030-4444

From: law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu<mailto:law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu>
[mailto:law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu<mailto:law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu?>] On Behalf Of
JBoppjr at aol.com<mailto:JBoppjr at aol.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 3:31 PM
To: Mark.Scarberry at pepperdine.edu<mailto:Mark.Scarberry at pepperdine.edu>; joseph.e.larue at gmail.com<mailto:joseph.e.larue at gmail.com>;
jerald.lentini at gmail.com<mailto:jerald.lentini at gmail.com>
Cc: law-election at uci.edu<mailto:law-election at uci.edu>
Subject: Re: [EL] Check out Unions ready to send volunteers out for Obama |
Fox News

Even at $10 an hour, we are talking about one days value at
$36,000,000. If they spend 3 Saturdays doing this, we are up to almost $100
million. "Reformers" were apoplectic when one casino owner gave $10 million
to a Super PAC, not $100 million to a candidate. No press releases from
"watch dog" Fred. No editorials in the NYTimes. Interesting.

Even if the union members do it for free, the union leadership has
organized this and it would not happen if they had not. Furthermore, as I
understand the articles, the union used union employees to do the
organizing. Obama will certainly give the union leadership credit for this
-- which "reformers" would call "corruption" if done by a corporatio -- and
they would be calling the people involved criminals. But nothing but
silence. Jim

In a message dated 8/11/2012 1:01:35 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
Mark.Scarberry at pepperdine.edu<mailto:Mark.Scarberry at pepperdine.edu> writes:
Is the union paying the workers for their canvassing work?

Mark S. Scarberry
Professor of Law
Pepperdine Univ. School of Law



From: law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu<mailto:law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu>
[mailto:law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu<mailto:law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu?>] On Behalf Of Joe La
Rue
Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 9:29 AM
To: Jerald Lentini
Cc: JBoppjr at aol.com<mailto:JBoppjr at aol.com>; law-election at uci.edu<mailto:law-election at uci.edu>
Subject: Re: [EL] Check out Unions ready to send volunteers out for Obama |
Fox News

I find it funny that Jerald, in arguing about the value of the contribution,
has proved Jim's point. A union sending its members to campaign for a
candidate is a valuable in-kind contribution. But most reformers won't see
that as a problem, as Jerald just demonstrated. But let a corporation make a
contribution up to the regular, noncorrupting contribution limits, and the
sky will fall.

On Aug 11, 2012, at 7:38 AM, Jerald Lentini <jerald.lentini at gmail.com<mailto:jerald.lentini at gmail.com>>
wrote:
Believe it or not, Jim, my intent in criticizing your comment was to point
out its lack of foundation and merit, not to "chill your speech." Or is
criticism from private parties inherently chilling now, too?
On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 10:03 AM, <JBoppjr at aol.com<mailto:JBoppjr at aol.com>> wrote:
One of my assumptions was that this was just for one day's work. I now see
from this
Click here: Labor chief Trumka vows stronger ground game for elections -
Washington Times that it is much more than that.

No, I don't know what the going rate for canvassers is. Maybe someone on
the list serve can provide that info. In any event, we are talking about
100s of millions of dollars for this effort.

And, JR, I know that your name calling is intended to chill my speech (boy,
we have seen a lot of that coming from the left these days) but, sorry, it
just won't work. Jim Bopp

In a message dated 8/11/2012 9:29:00 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
jerald.lentini at gmail.com<mailto:jerald.lentini at gmail.com> writes:
Jim, all else aside, do you really think the value of an in-kind
contribution is what the person's normal hourly rate doing something
completely different would be, and not the value of the service actually
rendered?

Unless you think a canvassing program that happens outside business hours
should be valued as an in-kind contribution of what the volunteers would
make doing their regular jobs (which are most likely a little more taxing
than knocking on doors), then your snark makes no sense.

-JR


On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 9:09 AM, <JBoppjr at aol.com<mailto:JBoppjr at aol.com>> wrote:
AFL-CIO to send out 3 or 400,000 volunteers to help Obama. See

Click here: Unions ready to send volunteers out for Obama | Fox News

I have always been curious why the "reformers" only focus only on
money. This sure seems like a very valuable contribution to the Obama
campaign to me (if this is coordinated, but I cannot figure that out. Anyway
the "reformers" say it doesn't matter -- corruption either way). Many of
these volunteers make 30, 40 or 50 dollars an hour, so this is a 144 million
dollar contribution to the Obama campaign. 400,000 x 8 x 40 = $144,000,000.

And the "reformer" scream bloody murder over contributions from
corporations of a few thousand. Jim Bopp

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