[EL] Romney's residency
Richard Winger
richardwinger at yahoo.com
Thu Aug 23 11:42:43 PDT 2012
People can change residence from one state to another fairly shortly before an election. With early voting in many states including the entire month before election day (and sometimes even earlier than that), it is plausible that some individuals could legally vote absentee/early in one state, and then in good faith move to another state, and vote on election day in the new state. And the person would not have been voting twice in the same election, even for President, because each state's presidential election is an independent election for a set of presidential electors.
Richard Winger
415-922-9779
PO Box 470296, San Francisco Ca 94147
--- On Thu, 8/23/12, Smith, Brad <BSmith at law.capital.edu> wrote:
From: Smith, Brad <BSmith at law.capital.edu>
Subject: Re: [EL] Romney's residency
To: "'John Meyer'" <meyerjc2921 at yahoo.com>, "'mmcdon at gmu.edu'" <mmcdon at gmu.edu>, "'Election Law'" <law-election at uci.edu>
Date: Thursday, August 23, 2012, 11:12 AM
I don’t think plural voting is illegal. What is generally illegal is to vote where you are not a resident. Most state laws (all?) are written in such a way
that you are a resident of just one state. Thus voting in two would suggest you are violating the laws of at least one.
Bradley A. Smith
Josiah H. Blackmore II/Shirley M. Nault
Professor of Law
Capital University Law School
303 East Broad Street
Columbus, OH 43215
(614) 236-6317
bsmith at law.capital.edu
http://www.law.capital.edu/faculty/bios/bsmith.asp
From: John Meyer [mailto:meyerjc2921 at yahoo.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2012 12:33 PM
To: Smith, Brad; 'mmcdon at gmu.edu'; 'Election Law'
Subject: Re: [EL] Romney's residency
Isn't a lot of the problem that many people can have a basis for residency in more than one State? it is my understanding that
as long as one doesn't try to vote in more than one State in the same election, one hasn't committed a crime. One should not
register in more than one State, but I thought it was only plural voting that is actually illegal. Certainly, one hears of people
changing their legal residency without actually moving, if they have sufficient ties in more than one State to qualify.
From: "Smith, Brad" <BSmith at law.capital.edu>
To: "'mmcdon at gmu.edu'" <mmcdon at gmu.edu>; 'Election Law' <law-election at uci.edu>
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2012 2:10 PM
Subject: Re: [EL] Romney's residency
Michael, stop it.
Ewing was probably not an Indiana resident for a host of other reasons as well as her home ownership. I have suggested no distinction between the two cases. What I have suggested is that voter ID may prevent other forms of improper voting other than voter
impersonation, and that idle speculation on Mitt Romney's taxes (and the address he listed) shed no insight on election law.
Bradley A. Smith
Josiah H. Blackmore II/Shirley M. Nault
Professor of Law
Capital University Law School
303 East Broad Street
Columbus, OH 43215
(614) 236-6317
bsmith at law.capital.edu
http://www.law.capital.edu/faculty/bios/bsmith.asp
-----Original Message-----
From:
law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu [mailto:law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu] On Behalf Of Michael McDonald
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2012 1:41 PM
To: 'Election Law'
Subject: Re: [EL] Romney's residency
Here is what you wrote:
"For example, during the Crawford litigations, plaintiffs offered up a woman named Faye Buies Ewing as an example of an eligible voter without ID. She had a Florida driver's license, and residences in both Florida and Indiana.
It turns out on close examination that she probably was not eligible to vote in Indiana, having established Florida as her domicile."
A woman with a home in Indiana and Florida is "on close examination...established Florida as her domicile."
Romney's contested residency, without owning a home in Massachusetts, is an "unsupported allegation."
It appears to me that a different standard is being applied to the two cases, and I apologize if I appear to you to be making stuff up since this is just my (perhaps poor) impression. I am trying to understand what the distinction is between the two cases that
leads to your conclusions. Is it Ewing's Florida drivers' license, because that is what appears to me to be implied above? But then, you state, "...she probably could have come up with some type of acceptable ID and voted in Indiana." Which implies that the
drivers' license is not what leads you to believe she was a resident of Florida.
For me, the standard to apply is pretty simple: differ to the voter's stated intention, unless there is other very compelling information that outweighs it. At face value, both Ewing and Romney should be considered residents of their respective states.
============
Dr. Michael P. McDonald
Associate Professor, George Mason University Non-Resident Senior Fellow, Brookings Institution
Mailing address:
(o) 703-993-4191 George Mason University
(f) 703-993-1399 Dept. of Public and International Affairs
mmcdon at gmu.edu 4400 University Drive - 3F4
http://elections.gmu.edu Fairfax, VA 22030-4444
-----Original Message-----
From: Smith, Brad [mailto:BSmith at law.capital.edu]
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2012 12:21 PM
To: 'mmcdon at gmu.edu'; 'Election Law'
Subject: RE: [EL] Romney's residency
Michael, you're going to have to go back and re-read my posts. Right now you're just making stuff up about what I've said in the past.
Bradley A. Smith
Josiah H. Blackmore II/Shirley M. Nault
Professor of Law
Capital University Law School
303 East Broad Street
Columbus, OH 43215
(614) 236-6317
bsmith at law.capital.edu
http://www.law.capital.edu/faculty/bios/bsmith.asp
-----Original Message-----
From:
law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu
[mailto:law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu] On Behalf Of Michael McDonald
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2012 12:09 PM
To: 'Election Law'
Subject: Re: [EL] Romney's residency
If you don't see the election law issues, then re-read the stories. An election complaint has been filed against Romney in the state of Massachusetts alleging vote fraud resulting from a falsified address. This would be Romney's second time his Massachusetts
residency status has been questioned, the previous time resulting in the paying of back taxes. The Crawford plaintiff at least owned an Indiana home, I believe, but Romney owned no Massachusetts home. His registration address was his son's (allegedly unfinished)
basement, and there are witnesses that claim Romney was no longer living in the area.
I believe that I agree with you Brad that we should give strong weight to Romney's judgment as to what he considers his residence. I am disappointed you are unwilling to give the same deference to the Crawford plaintiff. The Massachusetts board that investigates
the allegation against Romney might not, either. That is what my questions were aimed towards. Is the board partisan? Can it force Romney to divulge tax returns; the reporter approvingly quotes Hans von Spakovsky that tax returns "are crucial evidence in residency
disputes" (the unfortunate angle that ignited the flames, but also raises the importance of the story since it fits into an existing meme)? What information would it release and would it do so before the November election?
We have the following election law issues: vote fraud, residency status, and partisan election administration. It is not the first time we've discussed where a candidate or elected official allegedly falsified their registration address.
I hope Brad's label of "taxers" was not leveled at me since I never offered an opinion about Romney's tax returns. I just assume the issue has become politicized, which is why I am interested in my questions about the Massachusetts board. Labeling people as
"taxers" does nothing to help the discourse here. I recall some time ago conservatives on the list were outraged at the label "tea baggers" (I apologize for saying it, as I do not call Tea Party activists by that name) and I thought we agreed that we would
stop calling people names that they do not call themselves. I've got a good comeback to "taxers" -- "tax evaders" -- but do we really need to go there?
Perhaps the rule should be if you need to put it in scare quotes, think twice about writing it. If I've been guilty of it in the past, I apologize.
This is a plea for self-censorship. Everyone is free to write what they want, of course, but we will lose more people like Keith Gaddie to the detriment to us all. Sometimes, I think that is a purpose: to shut this list-serve down by making it so toxic no one
wants to read it (anyone else watch Newsroom?).
============
Dr. Michael P. McDonald
Associate Professor, George Mason University Non-Resident Senior Fellow, Brookings Institution
Mailing address:
(o) 703-993-4191 George Mason University
(f) 703-993-1399 Dept. of Public and International Affairs
mmcdon at gmu.edu 4400 University Drive - 3F4
http://elections.gmu.edu Fairfax, VA 22030-4444
-----Original Message-----
From:
law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu
[mailto:law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu] On Behalf Of Smith, Brad
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2012 9:26 AM
To: 'Election Law'
Subject: Re: [EL] Romney's residency
"Now that
the veil of ignorance has been peeled away at bit, I wonder if Brad Smith has further thoughts about the use of photo id to establish residency?"
- No, I think what I wrote in another thread is accurate. I wrote that voter ID laws can prevent ineligible persons from voting in situations other than voter impersonation fraud. I don't see that anything Michael writes contests that or would give me pause
for further thoughts on that point. I also wrote that that function didn't necessarily justify voter photo ID laws. I don't see anything Michael writes that contests that, or would give me pause for further thoughts on that subject.
By the way, my thoughts were on the use of photo ID as one form of evidence regarding residency, not that having an ID from a state "establish[ed] residency," a small but important difference.
If Romney's candidacy does nothing more than trim back the ridiculous idea that candidates must release their tax returns for umpteen plus one years, he will have done the nation a service.
"Truthers:" Those who believe the U.S. Government was behind, or collaborated in, the attacks of 9/11/01, and demand that the government disprove their unsupported allegations.
"Birthers:" Those who insist that Barack Obama was born outside the U.S., and demand that the President disprove their unsupported allegations.
"Taxers:" Those who insist that a failure to publicly release one's tax return is evidence of wrongdoing - including, perhaps, voting illegally - and demand that Governor Romney disprove their unsupported allegations.
I've little interest in any of the three categories, and really see no connection to election law in such speculative allegations.
Bradley A. Smith
Josiah H. Blackmore II/Shirley M. Nault
Professor of Law
Capital University Law School
303 E. Broad St.
Columbus, OH 43215
614.236.6317
http://law.capital.edu/faculty/bios/bsmith.aspx
________________________________________
From:
law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu
[law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu] on behalf of Michael McDonald [mmcdon at gmu.edu]
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2012 8:53 AM
To: 'Election Law'
Subject: [EL] Romney's residency
Unfortunately, the thread on Romney's tax returns quickly diverted away from the election law issues that were in the original story.
To recap the original story, Romney claimed on a voter registration application that he lived in the basement of his son's Massachusetts home, and voted from that address in the 2010 special election to replace Ted Kennedy. The original story that Rick posted
cited interviews of locals who claimed Romney did not live in Massachusetts at that time. Additional reporting in this story investigated home assessment records that indicate the basement was unfinished at the time Romney claimed residence:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/brendancoffey/2011/06/15/did-mitt-romney-live-in
-his-sons-unfinished-basement-last-year/
A complaint has been filed by Romney's Republican primary opponent Fred Karger with Massachusetts election officials alleging Romney committed vote fraud.
However you feel about Karger, Romney, and Obama, I suspect that we will see more of this story for many political reasons that would divert attention away from the specific election law issues. But I would like to bring up the election law issues for the very
reason that we may hear more about the
story:
- What is the governing body in Massachusetts for these sorts of allegations? It is not described in the stories. Is it a partisan body?
- Can Massachusetts election officials demand to see Romney's tax returns to establish his residency as part of their formal investigation? They did so previously when Romney moved to Utah for the Olympics and then later claimed Massachusetts residency for
his gubernatorial run. Massachusetts law requires seven years of uninterrupted residence to run for governor. Romney ultimately settled the issue by paying back state taxes. I do not think that the election officials would publicly release what may be turned
over to them, but (as the quickly devolving discourse on the list indicates) it may be damaging to Romney if they cite a discrepancy between his tax returns and his voter registration as a cause for action.
- What sort of time table might the Massachusetts election officials operate by? I.e., is it possible that they would release findings before November?
- Prior to this story, we were coincidentally discussing residency. Now that the veil of ignorance has been peeled away at bit, I wonder if Brad Smith has further thoughts about the use of photo id to establish residency? Brad alleged information provided by
a Crawford plaintiff revealed she likely lived in Florida, not Indiana. Applying a similar standard, was Romney likely a resident of Massachusetts given that he claims to have lived in his son's basement even though he owned multi-million dollar homes in other
states? I believe that Romney has the right, as the courts have affirmed for students and others, to determine his residence based on where he intends to live. A state-issued photo identification is secondary to a person's intention, and is not really proof
since the id could be fraudulently obtained. If I were on the board that will evaluate the vote fraud allegation, I would weigh Romney's personal choice of residence quite heavily, which is what I gather the boar
d did when the issue of his residency previously arose.
============
Dr. Michael P. McDonald
Associate Professor, George Mason University Non-Resident Senior Fellow, Brookings Institution
Mailing address:
(o) 703-993-4191 George Mason University
(f) 703-993-1399 Dept. of Public and International Affairs
mmcdon at gmu.edu 4400 University Drive - 3F4
http://elections.gmu.edu Fairfax, VA 22030-4444
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