[EL] Interview request
JBoppjr at aol.com
JBoppjr at aol.com
Thu Jan 12 05:38:30 PST 2012
All the nuns have to do is hitch a ride to the nearest licence branch and
get a free identification card. They don't have to get a driver's licence.
Really hard! Jim Bopp
In a message dated 1/11/2012 8:16:00 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
wgroth at fdgtlaborlaw.com writes:
As one of the attorneys for the plaintiffs who challenged Indiana's photo
ID law in the Crawford case, the assertion that the Indiana nuns in South
Bend were engaged in a premeditated publicity stunt or were deliberately
making a "political statement" is unfounded and simply absurd. After the
incident was reported in the media, we made repeated efforts to speak with
these nuns and were rebuffed. Their subsequent reticence to speak with anyone
about their experience attempting to vote without ID belies any claim that
they had a political motive. And these nuns, who I recall were all in
their 70s, 80s and 90s, were non-drivers for whom obtaining required ID would
have been anything but easy.
Bill Groth
------- Original Message ------- On 1/12/2012 12:08 AM Justin Levitt
wrote:
I have a different recollection about the Indiana nuns -- including
whether the IDs were actually "readily attainable" for 98-year-old
non-drivers. And as I recall, the majority of nuns in the convent
were dissuaded from showing up at the polls when they heard about
their fellow sisters being turned away, which seems like a particularly poorly
executed publicity exercise. But I also wasn't on-site. And I
have no doubt that some on-site thought it was a publicity stunt, and
some did not, which does little to resolve the issue.
Moreover, it's a fair point that Brad makes about generally
responding to the substance ... though I don't think the substance of the
"experiment" is worth all that much in reflecting on the
policy.
My problem with the substance of the "experiment" (beyond its
potential illegality) is that it to the extent it is intended to be
relevant to the debate over restrictive voter ID laws, it encourages
uninformed policymaking by unrepresentative anecdote. (When you go
looking for actual dead voters, you more often find this.)
The more thoughtful discussions about ID are -- as I think you've
pointed out, Brad -- driven by data. They're debates about costs
and benefits, including different ways in which states may ask voters to
identify themselves, and different ways in which those methods of
identification impact the electorate. The "experiment" does
little to tease out whether asking someone to sign in is different from
asking them to show some form of documentation is different from asking them
to show one or two state-specified cards. It does nothing to identify
the relative impact of any of those rules on real individuals. And it
does nothing to identify whether plugging the potential security breach
is worth the demonstrated cost. The video isn't intended to do
any of those things -- it's intended to sensationalize one aspect of
the problem. Mr. O'Keefe has shown a talent at succeeding at this
part
icular goal. But I'm not sure that calls for a
"substantive" response from opponents of ID laws. If anything, it would call for
sensationalism in return. And I don't see how that helps anyone
other than the sensationalists.
Put differently: if I manufacture a fake photo ID and sign in at the
polls using that fake photo ID, would the fact that I've
surreptitiously videotaped it demand a substantive response from those who favor
ID laws? Or would that particular criminal act be not terribly
representative of how the system normally works?
Justin
On 1/11/2012 3:35 PM, Smith, Brad wrote: Perhaps prosecutors should
investigate and prosecute (and perhaps not, if cooler heads
prevail); but does that say anything one way or the other about the, what
should we call it, "experiment"? If O'Keefe's experiment
is correct and it is easy to pull the names of recently deceased
voters, and then to send people in to vote them, that would seem
to be pretty relevant to the debate over voter ID (at least
demanding a substantive response from opponents of ID laws) and simply
urging that the testers be prosecuted without that substantive
response seems an awful lot like an effort to change the subject.
If I recall, in 2008, a bunch of nuns in Indiana, rather than
get IDs which were readily attainable, made a big point of going down
to vote without getting IDs, basically to make a political PR
statement. O'Keefe's actions (or those of the people
requesting ballots in his scheme) may have been illegal (I don't know
on the question of voting the ballots), but in spirit strike me as
little different from the actions of the nuns. A bit of theater
to make a point, but no actual harm to the integrity of any
election results done. While I don't encourage that (perhaps a small
fine would be appropriate), it seems a bit churlish to demand
prosecutions but not to address the issue the may have been exposed.
Bradley A. Smith
Josiah H. Blackmore II/Shirley M. Nault
Professor of Law
Capital University Law School
303 E. Broad St.
Columbus, OH 43215
614.236.6317
http://law.capital.edu/faculty/bios/bsmith.aspx
From: law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu
[law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu] on behalf of Rick Hasen
[rhasen at law.uci.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 6:13 PM
To: Justin Levitt
Cc: law-election at department-lists.uci.edu
Subject: Re: [EL] Interview request
I never said there was no crime. I'm with Justin. And
I've urged prosecutors to investigate, which they
now apparently are.
On 1/11/2012 3:09 PM, Justin Levitt wrote: Are we sure?
Federal law prohibits fraudulently "procuring" ballots in
addition to "casting" them, which might indicate that a
crime is complete even if the ballot is not voted.
And state law similarly prohibits "applying
for" a ballot in a name other than your own, in addition to
"voting".
I don't know whether either of those provisions have
ever been enforced, much less construed, for ballots that have not
been voted, and to me, the more natural reading is to
construe them so as to apply to procuring ballots for other people to
vote them. But I could understand an alternative view.
And as I keep hearing with respect to this issue, whether the provision
has been enforced in such circumstances isn't a
particularly good gauge of whether criminal activity has occurred.
Justin
On 1/11/2012 2:46 PM, Frank Askin wrote: I agree with Rick Hasen. It
appears that none of O'keefe's actors was stupid enough to actually
vote and risk a 5-year jail sentence. I wish they had.... Also, it is
unclear whether a voter in New Hampshire has to sign in before voting. When I
go to vote, no one asks me for ID but I have to sign the register so my
signature can be compared with the one in the book. FRANK Prof. Frank
Askin Distinguished Professor of Law and Director Constitutional
Litigation Clinic Rutgers Law School/Newark (973) 353-5687>>> Scott
Bieniek 1/11/2012 4:53 PM >>> “Who in their right mind would
risk a felony conviction for this? And who would be able to do this in large
enough numbers to (1) affect the outcome of the election and (2) remain
undetected?” Hasen wrote. I'm not buying this argument. You could
make the same argument against quid-pro-quo c
orruption, and the need for contribution limits and compelled disclosure.
Quid-pro-quo corruption is typically a felony, and yet we have
contribution limits and compelled disclosure, in part, because the risk of prosecution
is deemed insufficient to deter the conduct, or at least prevent the
appearance thereof in the eyes of the public. If the appearance of corruption
is sufficient to support contribution limits and compelled public
disclosure, why isn't the appearance of in-person voter fraud sufficient to
justify voter ID? In return for Voter ID, we get: 1. Restored public confidence
that it is harder for O'Keefe and others to pull off a stunt like
this. 2. A method of detecting in-person voter fraud at the time of the crime.
And because wagers are all the rage this cycle, I'd be willing to
wager that a higher percentage of the public believe that Voter ID prevents
in-person fraud than those that believe limits or disclosure prevent
corruption. Scott Bieni!
ek On Jan 11, 2012, at 12:54 PM, "Ryan J. Reilly" wrote:
I'm writing a story about James O'Keefe's new video in which his
associates obtained ballots using the names of recently deceased New
Hampshire voters and was hoping someone would be available for an interview on
short notice. As far as I can tell this is the largest coordinated attempt at
in-person voter impersonation fraud, and it was conducted by a group to
show why voter ID laws were necessary. I'm at 202-527-9261. Here's
the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-uVhhIlPk0&feature=player_embedded#! Thanks,
-- Justin Levitt Associate Professor of Law Loyola Law School | Los
Angeles 919 Albany St. Los Angeles, CA 90015 213-736-7417 justin.levitt at lls.edu
ssrn.com/author=698321
--
Rick Hasen
Chancellor's Professor of Law and Political Science
UC Irvine School of Law
401 E. Peltason Dr., Suite 1000
Irvine, CA 92697-8000
949.824.3072 - office
949.824.0495 - fax
rhasen at law.uci.edu
http://law.uci.edu/faculty/page1_r_hasen.html
http://electionlawblog.org
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-- Justin Levitt Associate Professor of Law Loyola Law School | Los
Angeles 919 Albany St. Los Angeles, CA 90015 213-736-7417 justin.levitt at lls.edu
ssrn.com/author=698321
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