[EL] Voter Fraud

Mon Oct 3 09:21:43 PDT 2016

As a general matter, we need to ensure that every vote counts.  This  has 
two aspects, in my view, that are of equal weight and  consequence.  The 
right to vote is violated by either (1) unreasonably  preventing an eligible 
person from voting or (2) by canceling out an  eligible person's vote by an 
ineligible person voting.  Liberals focus on  (1) and, in my view, pay little 
attention to (2).

In my post, I did not focus on "in person voter ID requirements," but  
raised the general issue of voter fraud since I think voter fraud is a serious  
violation of a person's right to vote.  And certainly there are many  
different ways that this problem is and can be dealt with.

Obviously, at this point, registration fraud is most likely to be the focus 
 of attention, since voting, by in large, is not occurring.  The voter  
registration process was created as a principal means to prevent voter fraud  
itself since prior registration provides a reasonable time to verify whether 
a  particular person, who has registered to vote, is in fact eligible to 
vote. And  if someone is not registered, the person cannot vote. Same day 
registration,  that many liberal advocate, would remove this time-tested and 
effective voter  fraud prevention measure.

Of course, no one in their right mind would commit voter registration fraud 
 without having in mind, and without having a plan, to convert that 
registered  voter into an actual vote.  The vote is the payoff, not the 
registration  itself. So it is irrelevant that there is no proven voter fraud yet, 
since  registration fraud is just the first step to voter fraud.

And as to your question,  it is perfectly obvious to me that  an in person 
voter ID requirement is a substantial impediment to someone  voting a 
fraudulently registered voter. The person would need to not only  fraudulently 
register a person but also create a phony ID to vote that  person.

So my view is that we need to strike a reasonable balance  between two 
concerns that are of equal weight. First, all eligible  voters must have a 
reasonable opportunity to vote.  And second we must  take reasonable efforts to 
make sure that all ineligible voters do not vote. I  understand that striking 
that balance is difficult and is often a subjective  judgment.  But I 
rarely see liberals doing anything other than disparaging  and denigrating those 
that raise one valid side of this issue. And usually it  entails what you 
resorted to, claims that these are but " efforts to suppress  the votes of the 
poor, old, and young without any basis in fact" or is just  "fact-free 
hysteria" ie, nonexistent, which was mild actually since liberal  usually just 
call it "racist."

So if we look at the big picture, liberal nirvana regarding voting  
procedures would involve: (1) no registration, or the functional equivalent,  same 
day registration, (2) no ID requirement, and (3) voting at any voting  
center anywhere in the county (state?, nation?, or just online?).  This  would 
provide zero protection against voter fraud, at least as far as the  outcome 
of the election is concerned.  

But, as I have suggested, if you really think that voter fraud is  
non-existent or just a racist plot to suppress certain voters, then I can  
understand why this nirvana appeals to you. But I think that there are plenty of  
people who would exploit such a system and make voter fraud a much more  
widespread problem than it is today. So a balance is needed.

Jeff, thanks for the question and the compliment.  I was not trying to  
build a case with my post, so I was not presenting "(my) 'best' facts." I  was 
just drawing peoples' attention to random articles that have appeared in  
several states in the last few days, few of which made it to this  list serve, 
even though I think they would merit it.  Jim Bopp

In a message dated 10/3/2016 11:12:11 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
Kevin.Greenberg at flastergreenberg.com writes:

Jim,  putting aside your inflammatory rhetoric, please explain how any of 
these  cases, if true, would have been cured by in person voter ID  
requirements.

Except for the Colorado case, which has absolutely no  facts about how 
those ballots were allegedly cast, none of these have anything  to do with in 
person fraud.  I'd like to see more facts on the Colorado  case.

Of course voter registration and absentee ballot fraud are  problems.  And 
ones that law enforcement needs to purse.  But that  has nothing to do with 
a certain group's affiliates efforts to suppress the  votes of the poor, 
old, and young without any basis in fact.

For the  purpose of the reporters lurking on the list, remember, Jim is one 
of the  bright lights of the Right's voting litigation.  That's not a dig, 
he  really is that good.  And these are his "best" facts.   Which  tells you 
everything you need to know about the fact-free hysteria driving the  
"movement."

Kevin  Greenberg
215-279-9912
kevin.greenberg at flastergreenberg.com<mailto:kevin.greenberg at flastergreenberg
.com>

On  Oct 2, 2016, at 9:56 AM, "JBoppjr at aol.com<mailto:JBoppjr at aol.com>"  
<JBoppjr at aol.com<mailto:JBoppjr at aol.com>> wrote:

Since Rick  and the PC police have declared that voter fraud is 
non-existent, and any  mention of it is "dangerous rhetoric" and a threat to our 
"fragile" democracy,  you are therefor prohibited from reading any of the articles 
below.  If  you dare read them, you will be immediately declare to be one 
of the "bunch of  deplorables" and sent to reeducation camp.

Click here: Investigation  launched after dead people are registered to 
vote in Harrisonburg - Richmond  Times-Dispatch:  
Virgini<http://www.richmond.com/news/virginia/article_e008ce00-0365-57a2-95c0-4d9aa70012f9.html>

Click  here: Possible voter fraud under investigation in Brighton |  
AL.com<http://www.al.com/news/birmingham/index.ssf/2016/08/possible_voter_fraud_und
er_inv.html>

Click  here: Voter Fraud: Dead People Voting in  
Colorado<http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2016/09/24/dead-people-voting-colorado/>

Click  here: Indiana State Police investigating voter registration  
fraud<http://www.indystar.com/story/news/politics/2016/09/15/state-police-investigat
ing-voter-registration-fraud/90407438/>

Click  here: Arcan Cetin, Cascade Mall shooting suspect, voted in 3 
elections without  U.S. citizenship - Washington  
Times<http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/sep/29/arcan-cetin-cascade-mall-shooting-suspect-voted-in/>

I  dare you.  Jim Bopp

In a message dated 10/1/2016 6:24:28 P.M.  Eastern Daylight Time, 
rhasen at law.uci.edu<mailto:rhasen at law.uci.edu>  writes:
Trump Again Raises Voter Fraud, Tells Supporters to Go to the  Polls, 
Raising Risk of Voter  Intimidation<http://electionlawblog.org/?p=87054>
Posted on September  30, 2016 3:53 pm<http://electionlawblog.org/?p=87054> 
by Rick  Hasen<http://electionlawblog.org/?author=3>

>From a speech  
today<https://twitter.com/SopanDeb/status/781988539458326528> via Sopan  Deb:

[http://electionlawblog.org/wp-content/uploads/hell.jpg]<http://electio
nlawblog.org/wp-content/uploads/hell.jpg>

See  my earlier LA Times  
oped<http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-hasen-vote-rigging-20160816-snap-story.html>,  on the risks of Trump’s 
dangerous  rhetoric.

_______________________________________________
Law-election  mailing  list
Law-election at department-lists.uci.edu<mailto:Law-election at department-lists.u
ci.edu>
http://department-lists.uci.edu/mailman/listinfo/law-election

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://webshare.law.ucla.edu/Listservs/law-election/attachments/20161003/4157017b/attachment.html>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: image002.png
Type: image/unknown
Size: 493524 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://webshare.law.ucla.edu/Listservs/law-election/attachments/20161003/4157017b/attachment.bin>