[EL] Verifying Citizenship For Voter Registration

Wed Feb 15 12:50:01 PST 2017

I don’t know, are you and/or Greenberg Traurig suggesting that only those who are rich or of certain races can be informed or care about governance? Of course, if we limited the vote to those with graduate degrees, that would ensure a permanent socialist majority, so I certainly wouldn’t suggest that…

Look, all I’m saying is that high voter-participation rates aren’t necessarily indicative of a “good” system, a legitimate system, or even a healthy democracy.

Ilya Shapiro
Senior Fellow in Constitutional Studies,
Editor-in-Chief of the Cato Supreme Court Review
Cato Institute
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From: greenbergk at gtlaw.com [mailto:greenbergk at gtlaw.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 3:26 PM
To: Ilya Shapiro; coney at lillieconey.net; braterj at brennan.law.nyu.edu
Cc: HESSDOUG at Grinnell.EDU; law-election at department-lists.uci.edu
Subject: RE: [EL] Verifying Citizenship For Voter Registration

Ilya,

Are you and/or the Cato Institute suggesting that we only allow those who are well educated, and, say, pass a civics test to vote?  How about if they have sufficient means to pay a poll tax?  Or limit participation to those with graduate degrees?  Or those of a certain race?
Just checking.

Kevin

From: law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu<mailto:law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu> [mailto:law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu] On Behalf Of Ilya Shapiro
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 3:19 PM
To: 'Lillie Coney'; Jonathan Brater
Cc: Hess, Doug; law-election at department-lists.uci.edu<mailto:law-election at department-lists.uci.edu>
Subject: Re: [EL] Verifying Citizenship For Voter Registration

But, assuming that people who don’t vote are generally lower-information than those who do (and care less about public policy), how does it improve self-governance to simply increase voter-participation rates?

(No need to answer, but in all seriousness, the question of whether/how to get more people to vote is completely separate from how do we ensure that all those who are eligible to vote can do so while stopping those who aren’t eligible.)

Ilya Shapiro
Senior Fellow in Constitutional Studies,
Editor-in-Chief of the Cato Supreme Court Review
Cato Institute
1000 Massachusetts Ave. NW
Washington, DC  20001
tel. (202) 218-4600
cel. (202) 577-1134
ishapiro at cato.org<mailto:ishapiro at cato.org>
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From: law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu<mailto:law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu> [mailto:law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu] On Behalf Of Lillie Coney
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 3:03 PM
To: Jonathan Brater
Cc: law-election at department-lists.uci.edu<mailto:law-election at department-lists.uci.edu>; Hess, Doug
Subject: Re: [EL] Verifying Citizenship For Voter Registration

The fundamental problem with using one database to authenticate people is that is does not nor will it ever work.

Even if the SSN database was accurate it would yield false positives and false negatives if it were used to authenticate registered voters.

It is not the accuracy of the data that causes a huge data accuracy problem it is the divergent purposes of the data collection for one system of records when compared to another that was created for a different purpose.  The data collection, retention and uses do not match the purposes that another database may have been created to serve.

Further the one to one matching by schema e.g each data field will vary due to human error, how each system treats input, the lack of uniformity on how data is stored, and used.

To solve the problem it would be better to provide a registered voter document to each citizen upon attaining 18 years of age or naturalization status. Our national crisis is not too many voters of questionable origin voting it is in fact too few qualified people not participating in the self governance mechanism of voting.

I think about low voter participation as a critical issue because it puts self governance at risk.

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 15, 2017, at 2:30 PM, Jonathan Brater <braterj at brennan.law.nyu.edu<mailto:braterj at brennan.law.nyu.edu>> wrote:
Thanks, Doug.

There are indeed data-quality issues with SSNs. Some states use the SSA Death Master File for the purpose of identifying registered voters who have died. As an OIG report shows (and as SSA has acknowledged), this list has errors<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__oig.ssa.gov_newsroom_congressional-2Dtestimony_march16-2Dhsgac&d=DwMGaQ&c=2s2mvbfY0UoSKkl6_Ol9wg&r=RKJ_pThjMyN_xzS53wJy8AHaUXwt6NdBkZ_r4PPJGs0&m=Gs83kO0DUlG_yvjr0YL1ZiRxVeadgZ07P8VDVpQMiWw&s=dfapfbEHn4O65kjVto0N77I5A1jccRduGopLNg6EW-8&e=>. Regardless, because certain categories of noncitizens have social security numbers, SSN is not going to be dispositive on citizenship status. Under HAVA, voter registration applicants with a SSN might be asked to provide the last 4 digits, but this is for identify verification rather than eligibility verification.

Jonathan Brater
Counsel, Democracy Program
Brennan Center for Justice at NYU School of Law
(646) 292-8373
jonathan.brater at nyu.edu<mailto:jonathan.brater at nyu.edu>
www.brennancenter.org<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.brennancenter.org_&d=DwMGaQ&c=2s2mvbfY0UoSKkl6_Ol9wg&r=RKJ_pThjMyN_xzS53wJy8AHaUXwt6NdBkZ_r4PPJGs0&m=Gs83kO0DUlG_yvjr0YL1ZiRxVeadgZ07P8VDVpQMiWw&s=45ohaLK-WRqIoNI7rzdShj0QiR7XO0Kqg5hrxyayrX8&e=> <image001.jpg><https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.facebook.com_BrennanCenter&d=DwMGaQ&c=2s2mvbfY0UoSKkl6_Ol9wg&r=RKJ_pThjMyN_xzS53wJy8AHaUXwt6NdBkZ_r4PPJGs0&m=Gs83kO0DUlG_yvjr0YL1ZiRxVeadgZ07P8VDVpQMiWw&s=DmKwSG0V2u1YNKHrBDfibwzatxhMnb3XRJBac9SxL3U&e=><image002.jpg><https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__twitter.com_BrennanCenter&d=DwMGaQ&c=2s2mvbfY0UoSKkl6_Ol9wg&r=RKJ_pThjMyN_xzS53wJy8AHaUXwt6NdBkZ_r4PPJGs0&m=Gs83kO0DUlG_yvjr0YL1ZiRxVeadgZ07P8VDVpQMiWw&s=K05x3fuVnvYtXhmQQHsdwDgRA2wOQs125janlHdlYPc&e=><image003.jpg><https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.youtube.com_profile-3Fuser-3DTheBrennanCenter&d=DwMGaQ&c=2s2mvbfY0UoSKkl6_Ol9wg&r=RKJ_pThjMyN_xzS53wJy8AHaUXwt6NdBkZ_r4PPJGs0&m=Gs83kO0DUlG_yvjr0YL1ZiRxVeadgZ07P8VDVpQMiWw&s=cMaC2HKEKYPDssjVU7pe1_E9-fbw-Lz_xmKGgJDxD9o&e=>

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From: law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu<mailto:law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu> [mailto:law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu] On Behalf Of Hess, Doug
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 11:22 AM
To: Lillie Coney; Kevin Benson
Cc: law-election at department-lists.uci.edu<mailto:law-election at department-lists.uci.edu>
Subject: Re: [EL] Verifying Citizenship For Voter Registration

“For example, people assume Social Security data is highly accurate when it is not--the trustworthiness of their records are much better when people start receiving benefits.  This is why people who are planning to retire are informed they must start the process to receive benefits months in advance.”

Just a quick comment on Social Security: Years ago when the question of “automatic” registration started kicking around, I asked a friend that works for the Senate Finance Committee about the accuracy of Social Security data. He went on, at length, about problems with SS data. He mentioned that there is a large list of SSN that have been used multiple times (I believe this was from people faking SSNs, but am not sure). He sent me some technical reports on this. While I doubt I could find them now, surely some analysts in government can speak to the utility of using SSN. Of course, Brenana Center and others likely have comments on this, too.

Douglas R Hess
Assistant Professor of Political Science

On research leave for Fall Semester 2016.
http://www.douglasrhess.com<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.douglasrhess.com_&d=DwMGaQ&c=2s2mvbfY0UoSKkl6_Ol9wg&r=RKJ_pThjMyN_xzS53wJy8AHaUXwt6NdBkZ_r4PPJGs0&m=Gs83kO0DUlG_yvjr0YL1ZiRxVeadgZ07P8VDVpQMiWw&s=NsgJS0j6iyljfFF7qt0W3kEqpJxpn4EO_5t2BtqVZws&e=>

Grinnell College
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phone: 641-269-4383

From: Lillie Coney [mailto:coney at lillieconey.net]
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 1:46 PM
To: Kevin Benson <kbenson at whitehartlaw.com<mailto:kbenson at whitehartlaw.com>>
Cc: law-election at department-lists.uci.edu<mailto:law-election at department-lists.uci.edu>
Subject: Re: [EL] Verifying Citizenship For Voter Registration

This is a bad data accuracy idea that just will not go away.

Two data sets created for different purposes cannot be used to authenticate records with the needed level of accuracy.

Create a  data set that collects and retains only what is needed for the purpose of the collection.

Data models that ignore accuracy at the expense of the data subject is a disservice to the expense and time invested in creating it.

I would like to see routine accuracy reporting  for data brokers that may be the only way to dissuade people from attempting one-to-one matching among or between disparate data sets.

Some problem are common names, the birthday problem or paradox, truncated addresses that are compared to full spellings of street names or data input errors in one data set having superior trust over accurate data in another data set.

For example, people assume Social Security data is highly accurate when it is not--the trustworthiness of their records are much better when people start receiving benefits.  This is why people who are planning to retire are informed they must start the process to receive benefits months in advance.

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 14, 2017, at 11:13 AM, Kevin Benson <kbenson at whitehartlaw.com<mailto:kbenson at whitehartlaw.com>> wrote:

Our Secretary of State is proposing to crosscheck the voter registration database with Systematic Alien Verification for Entitlements Program (SAVE).

https://thenevadaindependent.com/article/cegavske-no-evidence-illegal-votes-voter-registration-fraud-bigger-people-realize<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__thenevadaindependent.com_article_cegavske-2Dno-2Devidence-2Dillegal-2Dvotes-2Dvoter-2Dregistration-2Dfraud-2Dbigger-2Dpeople-2Drealize&d=DwMFaQ&c=HUrdOLg_tCr0UMeDjWLBOM9lLDRpsndbROGxEKQRFzk&r=xr_OjwGHtP-zw6I-DJj_MQ4cusLbiVT1bScGa0c8ZJo&m=zb5aR0CbAv4_swNIqcUuBcCuUmOOY54gO77HbKZHLQ4&s=SDHIBIh6nyDADPy5sjaAzuKTBERyfFjeiugwndkdko0&e=>

I am not familiar with SAVE, but just off the cuff I'd hazard a guess that access is limited to certain programs, as a matter of federal law. But that's a wag. I'd be interested in hearing others' thoughts on whether this can be done, with or without a change in federal law, and if so, what the quality of the system is and whether it would work for voter registration.

Kevin

--

Kevin Benson, Esq.

White Hart Law

2310 S. Carson Street #6

Carson City, NV 89701

(775) 461-3780

kbenson at whitehartlaw.com<mailto:kbenson at whitehartlaw.com>

On 2/14/2017 6:31 AM, Jon Sherman wrote:
REAL ID has been fully implemented in some, if not most, states. I don't know what that count is but some organization must track it. As you noted, proof of US citizenship or legal presence is required, but what matters more than what appears on the face of the card is whether the state DMV database distinguishes between those who showed proof of US citizenship and those who showed proof of legal presence but not US citizenship. Automatic voter registration bills across the country are forcing conversations like this because the success of AVR depends on DMV procedures in accepting, verifying and maintaining records on applicants' proof of US citizenship. So, for states with DMVs that are distinguishing between proof of US citizenship and proof of lawful presence and maintaining accurate records, it is possible for the state to use the DMV database to verify that someone is a US citizen - at least for those voter registration applicants who hold a DMV product. What they can't do is use the same database to verify that someone is a non-citizen because the person may have naturalized since they obtained a driver's license or state ID. I'm sure there are some states that commingle proof of US citizenship and proof of lawful presence such that they cannot rely on that database but I don't think that issue has been comprehensively investigated. Hope this helps.

On Mon, Feb 13, 2017 at 10:57 PM, Rick Hasen <rhasen at law.uci.edu<mailto:rhasen at law.uci.edu>> wrote:
Another source of data is after-the-fact investigations of suspected voter fraud.   SOS Kobach, for example, has claimed noncitizen voting is a big problem but has not brought a single prosecution for that yet.
Or there was this big study of Va non-citizen voting that found very little (despite the hype):
http://electionlawblog.org/?p=87096<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__electionlawblog.org_-3Fp-3D87096&d=DwMFaQ&c=HUrdOLg_tCr0UMeDjWLBOM9lLDRpsndbROGxEKQRFzk&r=xr_OjwGHtP-zw6I-DJj_MQ4cusLbiVT1bScGa0c8ZJo&m=zb5aR0CbAv4_swNIqcUuBcCuUmOOY54gO77HbKZHLQ4&s=oLSdYMkhbdHDmvXj0owVYfkJ6gt5rxrfwJ7LiAyo164&e=>

Rick

From: <law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu<mailto:law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu>> on behalf of Thessalia Merivaki <liamerivaki at gmail.com<mailto:liamerivaki at gmail.com>>
Date: Monday, February 13, 2017 at 3:24 PM
To: "Pildes, Rick" <pildesr at mercury.law.nyu.edu<mailto:pildesr at mercury.law.nyu.edu>>
Cc: Election Law Listserv <law-election at uci.edu<mailto:law-election at uci.edu>>
Subject: Re: [EL] Verifying Citizenship For Voter Registration

Individual rejected voter registration data show that states process voter registration applications differently. In Florida, if the citizen box is not checked, and if the SSN is missing, then the application is immediately rejected with the individual being marked as "non-citizen" and "missing SSN".

In GA, individual applications are classified as "pending" if an applicant's citizenship status is being verified, and rejected if the applicant is a non-citizen.

It is not very clear as to whether a non-citizen list exists that the election officials consult, but it is a question worth asking them on how they do it. My inquiries in Pinellas county, FL for instance, were very fruitful in understanding how local elections officials process these forms.

Thessalia Merivaki, Ph.D.

Visiting Assistant Professor
Department of History and Politics
Davis 234
University of South Florida, St. Petersburg
352-871-5260<tel:%28352%29%20871-5260>
Office Phone: 727-873-4495<tel:%28727%29%20873-4495>
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On Mon, Feb 13, 2017 at 5:18 PM, Pildes, Rick <pildesr at mercury.law.nyu.edu<mailto:pildesr at mercury.law.nyu.edu>> wrote:
I would appreciate help with this question, for purposes of upcoming classes:

When registering to vote, people must check a box indicating their citizenship status and sign the form, with criminal penalties for perjury if they have knowingly falsified their status.

For a State that is concerned about whether non-citizens are registering, despite this oath, what (if anything) can the State lawfully do to verify the citizenship status of potential voters?

Most students are surprised to learn there is no national data base of citizens against which a State could check status.  Dan Tokaji has informed me that the Real ID Act does not provide an answer, even if it were fully implemented in the states (which it's not).  People are required to provide evidence of lawful status to get a qualifying Real ID, but permanent residents and asylum applicants are allowed to get it, and the ID itself isn't required to show citizenship or immigration status.  We know there are certain things the States cannot do, such as demand that the federal voter-registration form require documentary proof of citizenship at the time of registration.

The same question arises for academic researchers who might be interested in trying to determine whether any non-citizens actually register to vote (whether in mistaken belief or otherwise) and if so, how many.  How would a researcher go about trying to get data on this question?

The controversy over the Richman et. al. studies and the critiques of those studies, which have been highlighted on this blog, don’t answer this question.  See https://electionlawblog.org/?p=90668<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__electionlawblog.org_-3Fp-3D90668&d=DwMFaQ&c=HUrdOLg_tCr0UMeDjWLBOM9lLDRpsndbROGxEKQRFzk&r=xr_OjwGHtP-zw6I-DJj_MQ4cusLbiVT1bScGa0c8ZJo&m=zb5aR0CbAv4_swNIqcUuBcCuUmOOY54gO77HbKZHLQ4&s=uoXmhzs6OGWbPE_4oomJhd2IBpa0bSFgAw6lYOnet7U&e=> and https://electionlawblog.org/?p=89545<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__electionlawblog.org_-3Fp-3D89545&d=DwMFaQ&c=HUrdOLg_tCr0UMeDjWLBOM9lLDRpsndbROGxEKQRFzk&r=xr_OjwGHtP-zw6I-DJj_MQ4cusLbiVT1bScGa0c8ZJo&m=zb5aR0CbAv4_swNIqcUuBcCuUmOOY54gO77HbKZHLQ4&s=suAUFJjtJAYnIA3s2AR6DHpwbXGytTByLcnn-o3ENZQ&e=> and
https://electionlawblog.org/?p=87732<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__electionlawblog.org_-3Fp-3D87732&d=DwMFaQ&c=HUrdOLg_tCr0UMeDjWLBOM9lLDRpsndbROGxEKQRFzk&r=xr_OjwGHtP-zw6I-DJj_MQ4cusLbiVT1bScGa0c8ZJo&m=zb5aR0CbAv4_swNIqcUuBcCuUmOOY54gO77HbKZHLQ4&s=D-D02I86UisgfZRI9-aBnOU62WudgK4lnLhYUbLuSas&e=>.  These issues concern what to make of the self-reporting of individuals on their citizenship and registration status in the CCES surveys.  If we accept that the Richman studies are meaningless, for reasons these critiques identify, that still does not give us an affirmative answer.  Moreover, in the Ansolabehere/Luks/Schaffner re-survey of the 19,000 respondents to the CCES survey of 2010, 99.25% report being citizens – so this pool is obviously not representative of the citizen/non-citizen population in general, let alone in border States like TX, AZ, and NV (even if we agree to rely on self-reporting).

I’m inclined to tell my students there is nothing States currently can do to verify the citizenship status of those who register to vote as citizens.  But if I am missing something, I’d appreciate hearing before reporting that.  Even if that’s right, that does not mean there is a problem, of course.  My own instinct is to think there isn’t a meaningful problem.  I suspect the most reliable place to find credible information would come from election-contest litigation, in which each ballot is examined one by one.  But I’d appreciate any further insights.

Best,
Rick

Richard H. Pildes
Sudler Family Professor of Constitutional Law
NYU School of Law
40 Washington Square South, NY, NY 10012
212 998-6377<tel:%28212%29%20998-6377>

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--
Thessalia Merivaki, Ph.D.

Visiting Assistant Professor
Department of History and Politics
Davis 234
University of South Florida, St. Petersburg
352-871-5260<tel:%28352%29%20871-5260>
Office Phone: 727-873-4495<tel:%28727%29%20873-4495>
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