[EL] Quick question about provisional voting in California

Sat Aug 29 14:21:56 PDT 2020

Thanks Justin, that is a great point! I guess my concern is that, having observed these issues and the chaos they caused, a malicious actor trying to interfere with the election could try to hack to recreate the same problems intentionally.

Vlad

From: Levitt, Justin <justin.levitt at lls.edu>
Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2020 3:55 PM
To: Kogan, Vladimir <kogan.18 at osu.edu>; Scott Rafferty <rafferty at gmail.com>; Douglas Johnson <djohnson at ndcresearch.com>
Cc: Election Law Listserv <law-election at uci.edu>
Subject: RE: [EL] Quick question about provisional voting in California

This doesn’t answer Vlad’s/David’s question.  And I don’t think that Vlad was implying that either the problems in Durham in 2016 or LA in 2020 were based on hacking.

But just to clarify, there is no evidence that the “2016 Durham County fiasco” had anything to do with hacking or security concerns.  https://www.ncsbe.gov/news/press-releases/2019/12/30/federal-analysis-finds-no-evidence-cyberattack-durham-county-2016<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.ncsbe.gov/news/press-releases/2019/12/30/federal-analysis-finds-no-evidence-cyberattack-durham-county-2016__;!!KGKeukY!jQDkzFWBTT95CboZDv6A5bdikKfOX__yA-RqqG_aE0gnt8SAgum-cPDOXKzGLPN6$>

And similarly, the backlogs and delays in Los Angeles County in this year’s primary were based on insufficient syncing and a deficient search function, not hacking or security concerns.  https://lavote.net/docs/rrcc/board-correspondence/VSAP-Board-Report.pdf?v=2#page=64<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/lavote.net/docs/rrcc/board-correspondence/VSAP-Board-Report.pdf?v=2*page=64__;Iw!!KGKeukY!jQDkzFWBTT95CboZDv6A5bdikKfOX__yA-RqqG_aE0gnt8SAgum-cPDOXKDKWRGj$>

That doesn’t make the problems in Durham in 2016 or LA in 2020 any less problems.  But particularly in a trigger-happy “HACKING!” environment (again, I don’t think that’s what Vlad was suggesting), I wanted to try to avoid confusion.

Justin

From: Law-election <law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu<mailto:law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu>> On Behalf Of Kogan, Vladimir
Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2020 12:19 PM
To: Scott Rafferty <rafferty at gmail.com<mailto:rafferty at gmail.com>>; Douglas Johnson <djohnson at ndcresearch.com<mailto:djohnson at ndcresearch.com>>
Cc: Election Law Listserv <law-election at uci.edu<mailto:law-election at uci.edu>>
Subject: Re: [EL] Quick question about provisional voting in California

I know David asked about this already, but I didn’t see any responses: Are the ePollbooks connected to the internet? If so, are there hacking/security concerns with this? I’m thinking a repeat of the 2016 Durham County fiasco (or this year’s primary election in Los Angeles County).

Vlad

From: Law-election <law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu<mailto:law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu>> On Behalf Of Scott Rafferty
Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2020 12:00 AM
To: Douglas Johnson <djohnson at ndcresearch.com<mailto:djohnson at ndcresearch.com>>
Cc: Election Law Listserv <law-election at uci.edu<mailto:law-election at uci.edu>>
Subject: Re: [EL] Quick question about provisional voting in California

I haven't read through the entire thread, but beginning in the 2018 primary, SB 286 requires polling sites to issue nonprovisional ballots upon surrender or if the poll book verifies that the VBM has not been "returned," since it can be marked to prevent the VBM from being subsequently "cast or tabulated." (amended Section 3015)
This would appear to be a cancellation of the prior ballot for purposes of Section 18 of the VRA, so a person whose ballot was mailed but not yet received would not be double voting.
I don't think the emergency rules change that.

Scott Rafferty
1913 Whitecliff Ct
Walnut Creek CA 94596
 mobile 202-380-5525

On Mon, 17 Aug 2020 at 19:11, Douglas Johnson <djohnson at ndcresearch.com<mailto:djohnson at ndcresearch.com>> wrote:
Capturing just how confusing this all is even for those spending a lot of time studying it, the statement that " about 50% of CA voters lived in a VCA county where they automatically received a ballot in the mail for the primary election" is incorrect. That reflects a common misperception about the status of Los Angeles County, which was a pseudo-VCA county. Los Angeles set up vote centers rather than traditional precincts, but did NOT mail every voter a ballot. Taking Los Angeles out of the count drops that percentage from 50% to 25%. (For those not from California, Los Angeles County is slightly over 25% of the state's population).

But the statement about 60% of voters being permanent absentees sounds correct to me, though I did not double-check that.

- Doug

On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 1:45 PM Lisa Bryant <lbryant at csufresno.edu<mailto:lbryant at csufresno.edu>> wrote:
Yes, "most counties" did not receive ballots automatically, but about 50% of CA voters lived in a VCA county where they automatically received a ballot in the mail for the primary election this year. In those counties, if they didn't take their ballot to the vote center with them the vote center printed a new ballot and voided the mailed ballot. They did not have to vote provisionally.

Even prior to VCA, over 60% of registered voters in CA were registered for permanent absentee ballots, as high as 75% in some counties. CA also has a couple of counties that are were exclusively VBM prior to VCA due to small populations and their rural nature.  CA, as a whole, is pretty familiar with VBM and absentee ballots.

Best,
Lisa

Lisa Bryant, Ph.D.
Associate Professor, Department of Political Science
Survey Director, Institute for Leadership and Public Policy
California State University, Fresno

On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 1:28 PM Douglas Johnson <djohnson at ndcresearch.com<mailto:djohnson at ndcresearch.com>> wrote:
But that primary was an election where in most counties you actively requested a ballot (either for that election or as a permanent absentee). This November election millions will get mail ballots they never requested - will they know to bring them with them to surrender?

Eric McGhee or Thad Kousser (or anyone from that team), has your research with the early “Vote Center” counties shown any indications of how much this is an issue?

- Doug

On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 12:04 PM Pamela S Karlan <pkarlan at stanford.edu<mailto:pkarlan at stanford.edu>> wrote:
Dear Fred and Nate,

If the primary is any indication, at my polling place, it seemed that most of us who were voting in person did hand in our VBM ballot.

It's interesting that the Secretary of State's website doesn't say anything about this.:  https://www.sos.ca.gov/elections/voting-info/ways-vote/<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.sos.ca.gov/elections/voting-info/ways-vote/__;!!KGKeukY!gouMklpU0Aq6XuPV0hvmddwT59QXad-wcdpRkiciFCE0MO8HaUBobhaJHwD2yJw-$>

Pamela S. Karlan

Kenneth and Harle Montgomery Professor of Public Interest Law

Co-Director, Supreme Court Litigation Clinic

Stanford Law School

karlan at stanford.edu<mailto:karlan at stanford.edu>

650-725-4851

________________________________
From: Law-election <law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu<mailto:law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu>> on behalf of Fredric Woocher <fwoocher at strumwooch.com<mailto:fwoocher at strumwooch.com>>
Sent: Monday, August 17, 2020 11:52 AM
To: Nate Persily <npersily at law.stanford.edu<mailto:npersily at law.stanford.edu>>; Election Law Listserv <law-election at uci.edu<mailto:law-election at uci.edu>>
Subject: Re: [EL] Quick question about provisional voting in California

Nate,

I do not know the answer for certain, but unless the voter hands in the unvoted VBM ballot, I don’t see how it could be otherwise.  For those counties that will still be using traditional polling places, there is no other way for the pollworkers to know whether the voted VBM has already been returned prior to casting a ballot at the polling place.

I believe some counties that have the ability to use electronic polling books, with real-time countywide information on who has voted and by what means, may be able to avoid the use of provisional ballots, but I don’t see how that can be avoided in other counties.

And this has the potential to introduce an additional grounds for invalidating the voted ballot, because many people forget to sign their provisional ballots in every election.

Fredric D. Woocher

Strumwasser & Woocher LLP

10940 Wilshire Blvd., Ste. 2000<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.google.com/maps/search/10940*Wilshire*Blvd.,*Ste.*2000**A0D*0A**A0D*0A*Los*Angeles,*CA*90024?entry=gmail&source=g__;KysrKyslJSslJSsrKys!!KGKeukY!gouMklpU0Aq6XuPV0hvmddwT59QXad-wcdpRkiciFCE0MO8HaUBobhaJH25aIzGw$>

Los Angeles, CA 90024<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.google.com/maps/search/10940*Wilshire*Blvd.,*Ste.*2000**A0D*0A**A0D*0A*Los*Angeles,*CA*90024?entry=gmail&source=g__;KysrKyslJSslJSsrKys!!KGKeukY!gouMklpU0Aq6XuPV0hvmddwT59QXad-wcdpRkiciFCE0MO8HaUBobhaJH25aIzGw$>

fwoocher at strumwooch.com<mailto:fwoocher at strumwooch.com>

(310) 576-1233 x105

IMPORTANT NOTICE: Pursuant to the Governor’s “Stay at Home” Order, Strumwasser & Woocher LLP is CLOSED TO THE PUBLIC.  Packages requiring signatures will be returned undelivered – do not serve papers by this method.  While our office is closed, Strumwasser & Woocher LLP consents to electronic service in all of its matters.  Please serve by electronic mail to fwoocher at strumwooch.com<mailto:fwoocher at strumwooch.com> AND to our Senior Legal Assistant, LaKeitha Oliver, at loliver at strumwooch.com<mailto:loliver at strumwooch.com>.  We reserve the right to object to any notice or delivery of any kind if not actually received by counsel before all statutory deadlines.

From: Law-election [mailto:law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu<mailto:law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu>] On Behalf Of Nate Persily
Sent: Monday, August 17, 2020 11:45 AM
To: Election Law Listserv <law-election at uci.edu<mailto:law-election at uci.edu>>
Subject: [EL] Quick question about provisional voting in California

Does anyone know if the voters who will choose to vote in person in California this November will need to vote a provisional ballot?  That is, given that all active registrants will receive ballots in the mail, will those who opt for polling places necessarily be casting a provisional ballot, rather than a "normal" ballot?

----------------

Nate Persily

James B. McClatchy Professor of Law
Stanford Law School
559 Nathan Abbott Way<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.google.com/maps/search/559*Nathan*Abbott*Way**A0D*0A*Stanford,*CA*94305-8610?entry=gmail&source=g__;KysrKyUlKysr!!KGKeukY!gouMklpU0Aq6XuPV0hvmddwT59QXad-wcdpRkiciFCE0MO8HaUBobhaJH9kxPnAz$>
Stanford, CA 94305-8610<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.google.com/maps/search/559*Nathan*Abbott*Way**A0D*0A*Stanford,*CA*94305-8610?entry=gmail&source=g__;KysrKyUlKysr!!KGKeukY!gouMklpU0Aq6XuPV0hvmddwT59QXad-wcdpRkiciFCE0MO8HaUBobhaJH9kxPnAz$>
(917) 570-3223
npersily at stanford.edu<mailto:npersily at stanford.edu>

www.persily.com<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.persily.com/__;!!KGKeukY!gouMklpU0Aq6XuPV0hvmddwT59QXad-wcdpRkiciFCE0MO8HaUBobhaJH5y6g5OC$>
_______________________________________________
Law-election mailing list
Law-election at department-lists.uci.edu<mailto:Law-election at department-lists.uci.edu>
https://department-lists.uci.edu/mailman/listinfo/law-election<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/department-lists.uci.edu/mailman/listinfo/law-election__;!!KGKeukY!gouMklpU0Aq6XuPV0hvmddwT59QXad-wcdpRkiciFCE0MO8HaUBobhaJH92Joz0e$>
--
Douglas Johnson
National Demographics Corporation
djohnson at NDCresearch.com<mailto:djohnson at NDCresearch.com>
phone 310-200-2058
_______________________________________________
Law-election mailing list
Law-election at department-lists.uci.edu<mailto:Law-election at department-lists.uci.edu>
https://department-lists.uci.edu/mailman/listinfo/law-election<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/department-lists.uci.edu/mailman/listinfo/law-election__;!!KGKeukY!gouMklpU0Aq6XuPV0hvmddwT59QXad-wcdpRkiciFCE0MO8HaUBobhaJH92Joz0e$>

--
Douglas Johnson
National Demographics Corporation
djohnson at NDCresearch.com<mailto:djohnson at NDCresearch.com>
phone 310-200-2058
_______________________________________________
Law-election mailing list
Law-election at department-lists.uci.edu<mailto:Law-election at department-lists.uci.edu>
https://department-lists.uci.edu/mailman/listinfo/law-election<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/department-lists.uci.edu/mailman/listinfo/law-election__;!!KGKeukY!gouMklpU0Aq6XuPV0hvmddwT59QXad-wcdpRkiciFCE0MO8HaUBobhaJH92Joz0e$>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://webshare.law.ucla.edu/Listservs/law-election/attachments/20200829/43c2b24c/attachment.html>