Subject: Re: Telling real world consequences of Indiana voter id law
From: Rick Hasen
Date: 5/7/2006, 1:52 PM
To: David Lublin
CC: election-law@majordomo.lls.edu

David,
For this reason (as well as for the sake of a plan that could gain the support of both Democrats and Republicans), I've argued that voter i.d. laws (with a biometric/fingerprint option---rather than actually requiring voters to be in possession of the i.d. when they vote) should be enacted only as part of a package where the government proactively registers alls registered voters (except those voters who affirmatively don't wish to register) and pays for all costs associated with obtaining the i.d.s (including costs of obtaining birth certificates or other proof of identity).  So far as I know, none of the new voter i.d. laws (all enacted (or proposed) by Republican-dominated legislatures and opposed by Democrats) have included an element of full payment and universal voter registration.  [For more on my arguments, see here: http://electionlawblog.org/archives/margin-final.pdf]

In addition to the fairness of coupling the two requirements, I think it would cut down on the registration fraud that comes from the use of bounty hunters to collect new registrations.
Rick

David Lublin wrote:

Many countries have voter ID laws.  As one can imagine, this is not a terrible burden in European countries where everyone is required by law to have and to carry an ID and everyone is registered with the local authority.  It also isn't such a problem in other countries where the government takes a highly active role in getting people on the registration rolls.  The problem with ID laws in the U.S. is that it is coupled with our traditional placing of the burden to register on the voter.  It thus constitutes another set of bureaucratic hoops and will inevitably reduce registration and voting to some extent.  One imagines (though data could contradict this) that the burden would fall most heavily on people who usually navigate bureaucracy poorly (the poor and the uneducated) as well as highly mobile people (who will need to get new IDs and re-register).  In short, voter ID is another nice example of how the impact of one policy is heavily dependent on the institutional context in which it operates--it is not an inherently a bad or a good thing itself.

Incidentally, getting an ID like a driver's licence is not always so easy.  When I moved back to Maryland eight years ago, I had to bring several different pieces of evidence that I now really lived in the state.  One was rejected because the zip code and town name did not match (most of Montgomery County is unincorporated and thus the towns are postal addresses).  Fortunately, I brought extra ID and did not need to make it out to the DMV (not nearby) a second time.  Of course, others might delay getting a driver's licence in order to avoid the joy of paying the enormous tax that comes with re-titling your car in the State of Maryland.  In order to avoid raising "taxes," the state is very big on "fees" as a means of revenue enhancement.

David Lublin
American University




"Smith, Brad" <BSmith@law.capital.edu>
Sent by: owner-election-law_gl@majordomo.lls.edu

05/07/2006 12:40 PM

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Subject
RE: Telling real world consequences of Indiana voter id law







I'm a bystander in this debate, but I think the fair interpretation of what the voter said was:  "When will the Democratic Party wake up? The only voters who would be 'disenfranchised' are ones who are not eligible to vote in the first place."  I think that that sentiment is probably incorrect as an empirical matter.  But I don't think we need to play "gotcha!" games on this list.

Similarly, in the post that started this round,  Joe Sandler seemed to insinuate, when he suggested the Indiana GOP was "despicable" rather than simply misguided, that Republicans' secret motive is to deprive veterans of the vote.  I've seen much disagreement among both political consultants and political scientists as to whether the veteran vote is merely reflective of the general vote, or more GOP oriented.  I've seen no consultant or political scientist argue that the veteran vote tilts Democrat.  Most everyday Republicans I know assume their party owns the veterans vote.  Thus I find it hard to believe that the GOP wants to disenfranchise veterans, and  I think a likely result of the veteran's issue will be a quick amendment to the Indiana law to allow VA IDs to suffice.  That will not, I think, really satisfy those who oppose the requirement more broadly.  Indeed, it will probably be cited as further evidence of Republican perfidity.

The fact is, as Jason Torchinsky points out, most Americans overwhelmingly favor a voter ID requirement.  If you just want to pump up hard core Democrats, questioning the "real motive" of Republicans may work, but probably this list is not the best forum.  If you want to really debate the merits or convince the undecided, I think you have to address the arguments as they are presented in favor of voter ID.  It is true that one problem with these laws, - as I have often suggested is true with campaign finance laws - is that they can be and sometimes are used for political ends.  But it strikes me that even that argument will be more persuasive when put forth as an inevitable consequence of the laws - not due to some uniquely evil characteristic of the partisan opposition (is it inconceivable that Democrats are also thinking about the partisan repercussions of these laws, and that that contributes to the vehemence with which they argue for something that, once again, most Amer!
icans seem to view as no big deal?)

In other words, the immediate political problem for Democrats may be that they think these voter ID laws work to their disadvantage.  But that is not much of an argument for changing the law, unless the listener is a partisan Democrat.  The principled reasons for opposition have been put forth by others, and ought to be debated on the merits: that these laws are subject to political manipulation (including in their administration) and thus better not enacted at all, regardless of whom they may immediately seem to favor; that they burden voters more than their proponents think, thus substantially burdening a fundamental right; and that they do very little to actually address vote fraud, thus failing to fulfill any important, neutral policy objective.  I'm not sure that impugning the motives of the overwhelming majority of Americans - not just Republicans - who favor these laws advances the case much.

Bradley A. Smith
Professor of Law
Capital University Law School
Columbus, OH


________________________________

From: owner-election-law_gl@majordomo.lls.edu on behalf of wgroth@fdgtlaborlaw.com
Sent: Sun 5/7/2006 8:26 AM
To: election-law@majordomo.lls.edu
Subject: Re: Telling real world consequences of Indiana voter id law



A reader of The Indianapolis Star from Terre Haute may have unwittingly
revealed the Republican Party's true motives in enacting the Indiana photo
ID law. Reacting to Howard Dean's visit this week to Indianapolis at which
Dean announced the DNC's support for the Indiana Democratic Party's appeal
to the 7th Circuit, the reader, as quoted in this morning's Star, said:
"When will the Democratic Party wake up?  The only voters who would be
disenfranchised [by the Indiana photo ID law] are ones who should not be
voting in the first place."

If only others who enacted or who continue to defend this dreadful law
were as candid as this plain-spoken Hoosier!

William R. Groth
Attorney for the Indiana Democratic Party







> Esperanto? We couldn't even count the votes in english.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Steven J. Reyes" <sreyes@kaufmandowning.com>
> Date: Sat, 6 May 2006 12:15:12
> To:<election-law@majordomo.lls.edu>
> Subject: Re: Telling real world consequences of Indiana voter id law
>
> I haven't read the particulars of the IN law, but even provisions
> "allowing" provisional voters to return to the county registrar with their
> ID (if they have one) are problematic.  In AZ, for example counties seats
> are often 100+ miles from many points in the county thus entailing a 4+
> hour round trip.  Even if not as far in IN, this requirement creates a
> practical barrier for those who didn't have a valid ID for whatever reason
> (forgetfulness/registrar error/poll worker error/just moved, etc.).  For
> older folks and the poor, with less access to transportation, the process
> becomes even more complicated. And don't forget all that time off from
> work that people might have to take to do all this (if they can afford
> to).  The list goes on and on and on....(and for what? to "secure" the
> ballot from the massive voter fraud that no one seems to be able to point
> to?)  As you can tell I'm not a fan of these types of voter ID laws.   ---
> Original Message --- From: "DemEsqNYC@aol.com" !
>  <DemEsqNYC@aol.com> Sent: Sat 5/6/06 8:41 am To:
> "JTorchinsky@Holtzmanlaw.net" <JTorchinsky@Holtzmanlaw.net>,
> "election-law@majordomo.lls.edu" <election-law@majordomo.lls.edu> Cc:
> Subject: Re: Telling real world consequences of Indiana voter id law
> Jason:  With all due respect, I think you misunderstand the nature of
> disenfranchisement.  If I am allowed to vote by walking into my living
> room  any day I want and pushing a button, but you have to go to Alaska
> and vote in a  20 minute window on one day of the year, in esperanto on
> by chiseling your vote  into granite, have you been technically
> disenfranchised, perhaps not.  Have  you been practically
> disenfranchised, certainly.   The extreme nature of the example above not
> withstanding, everything else  is a matter of degree, but the principal
> is the same.  Any obstacle thrown  up in the path of an otherwise
> qualified voter is a step towards  disenfranchisement.  The fact that the
> vets chose not to jump through the  hoops an!
>  d over the obstacles put in their way does not change the fact!
>   that th
> ey  were disenfranchised.  They showed up to vote, they were not allowed
> to  vote.  The fact that these voters were veterans is significant only in
> one  aspect.  They had a government issued photo ID, it just wasn't the
> RIGHT  government issued photo ID card.  This goes to show the absurdity
> of the  entire voter ID system.  It makes the right to vote contingent on
> bureaucratic niceties rather than on whether there is any realistic
> question as  to the voter's identity.  Your references to military votes
> in Florida are, of course, irrelevant to  this debate.  I will note that
> the people who now do not see a problem with  these vets being excluded
> were on the other side of the issue then (and vis a  versa).   What
> disturbs me the most is your reference to "at most, 170,000 people" as  if
> this was a negligible and unimportant number.  By my fast and dirty
> calculations, this is about 4% of the voting age population in Missouri.  
> Even if the number were considerably smaller, I !
>  will remind you that the Voter  ID movement was founded on the mere rumor
> of a possibility that someone  somewhere might be voting fraudulently.
> There is virtually no proof of  anyone, anywhere voting in person under
> someone else's ID (absentee balloting is  another story).  If potentially
> 170,000 people being disenfranchised in a  single, not particularly
> populous state is not significant, then why are we at  all concerned
> about the voter fraud issue.  It seems to me it always comes back to
> whether you view voting as a right  or a privilege.  To me that is easy,
> it is not only a right, it is a  duty.  It should not be reserved to
> those rich enough, educated enough, or  just aware enough to possess (and
> carry) the right ID, it is for all of us, even  those mere 170,000
> "undocumented voters" in Missouri.  Howard Leib
>
>










-- 
Rick Hasen
William H. Hannon Distinguished Professor of Law
Loyola Law School
919 Albany Street
Los Angeles, CA  90015-1211
(213)736-1466
(213)380-3769 - fax
rick.hasen@lls.edu
http://www.lls.edu/academics/faculty/hasen.html
http://electionlawblog.org