Subject: Re: [EL] FW: Floyd Abrams & Citzens United
From: "Smith, Brad" <BSmith@law.capital.edu>
Date: 10/2/2010, 6:29 PM
To: "election-law@mailman.lls.edu" <election-law@mailman.lls.edu>

RE: [EL] FW: Floyd Abrams & Citzens United
I'm not  sure what you mean.  The First Amendment is intended to cover people.  People do not lose their rights merely through the act of association - in fact, the First Amendment specifically provides for a right to associate. 
 
I'm not quite sure what you think corporations are.  Are they ducks?  Airplanes?  Volcanic ash?  If they were any of those things, could they (physically, not legally) speak?  To be concerned about corporate speech is to admit that a corporation can speak.  But a corporation can speak only because people can speak.  It consists of people.  If it was just an assembly of ducks or a pile of volcanic ash, there would be no corporate speech.  And if people aren't "covered" by the Constitution, I'm not sure what is.  Show me an original textualist argument that the First Amendment applies to political parties; to non-profit groups such as the NAACP; to big foundations such as Pew;  to groups of street protestors.  Of course none of those things are mentioned in the Amendment, but it applies to them because they are people. 
 
If you want early evidence that the Constitution protects the rights of citizens organized in a corporate form, you can start with the Dartmouth College case. 
 
Bradley A. Smith
Josiah H. Blackmore II/Shirley M. Nault Designated Professor of Law
Capital University Law School
303 E. Broad St.
Columbus, OH 43215
(614) 236-6317
http://www.law.capital.edu/Faculty/Bios/bsmith.asp


From: Trevor Potter [mailto:TP@Capdale.com]
Sent: Sat 10/2/2010 6:27 PM
To: JBoppjr@aol.com; Smith, Brad; election-law@mailman.lls.edu
Subject: RE: [EL] FW: Floyd Abrams & Citzens United


I have YET to see an originalist textual argument that the drafters of the First Amendment were speaking about corporations--although I have seen a lot of writing about how the Founders were not fans of corporations--AND thought they were strictly limited by their government charters to certain economic activities. Could anyone point me to writings showing that the Founders (as opposed to much later Courts) intended to cover corporations and not just persons?

Trevor Potter

________________________________

From: election-law-bounces@mailman.lls.edu on behalf of JBoppjr@aol.com
Sent: Sat 10/2/2010 6:08 PM
To: BSmith@law.capital.edu; election-law@mailman.lls.edu
Subject: Re: [EL] FW: Floyd Abrams & Citzens United


Now that Dr. Bozian has found out that he is completely wrong on what the First Amendment says, I assume he will now concede that he is in error and will withdraw his sharp, and now acknowledged unjustified, criticism of Mr. Abrams.  Jim Bopp

In a message dated 10/2/2010 1:52:53 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, BSmith@law.capital.edu writes:

       
        But if corporations aren't people, then physically they can't speak, so you will have no worries.  They will never, with or without Citizens United, affect an election. 
        
        But maybe they can speak like a robot!  But would programming a robot to speak be protected speech?  I assume so.  Why? - because a person had to program it.  Indeed, we really already have mechanical speech, as when recordings play a message over and over, or as when a person posts a political video on YouTube that others can then watch.  I presume that a deaf/mute person would be protected in programming a robot to make audible political statements on his behalf that, he feels, would be an effective way for him to communicate.
        
        Of course, the reality is that corporations are made up of people, and people have a right to associate, and associations of people have a right to speak.  And corporate personhood does not stem from a decision that never examined the issue.  I know that's Tom Hartmann's view, but Hartmann is neither a lawyer nor an historian, and it's just not true.  The idea of corporate personhood has existed since the nation's founding, and is well grounded in legal theory, history, and precedent.
        
        Bradley A. Smith
        Josiah H. Blackmore II/Shirley M. Nault Designated Professor of Law
        Capital University Law School
        303 E. Broad St.
        Columbus, OH 43215
        (614) 236-6317
        http://www.law.capital.edu/Faculty/Bios/bsmith.asp

________________________________

        From: election-law-bounces@mailman.lls.edu on behalf of Richard C. Bozian
        Sent: Sat 10/2/2010 12:38 PM
        To: election-law@mailman.lls.edu
        Subject: [EL] FW: Floyd Abrams & Citzens United
       
       


________________________________



        Floyd Abrams has written a masterful exposition of the Citizens United decision. It is a  classical repetition of the fallacy of Xeno's Paradox which had the hare never catching the tortoise. One can justify anything by starting with a faulty assumption.
       
        He justifies the decision on the basis of the 1st Amendment. The  1st amendment  refers to freedom of speech of "the people". Corporations are not people anymore than  is a robot performing human feats. Corporate personhood is a legal fiction that emerged from an  interpretation of a court's deliberation  that never examined or even considered  corporate personhood. 
       
        I am impressed only with his craftsmanship.
       
        Richard C. Bozian M.D. F.A.C.P.
        Professor Emeritus of Medicne
        University of Cincinnati.
       


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