This gets into the point of those advocating for compulsory voting. Force
someone to choose, and they will often make a choice. However, voters always
have the option of casting a blank vote. A few years ago, I presented a
conference paper on what I called "selective abstention." I showed at least
some of the residual vote (total ballots minus vote for highest office) is
correlated with the level of competition in the top of the ballot race. A
good example of this in Virginia: in 2002, John Warner ran unopposed for
Senate and an education bond measure had 50,000 more votes. So, at the end
of the day, strongly suggesting a choice to voters does not mean that they
will exercise that choice, especially for lower ballot races. Imagine the
flip side, where the roll off (voters abstaining) for a lower ballot race
exceeds 50%. Would you nullify those elections? Would you hold a special
election, where most of the abstainers in the general will not show up to
vote?
As to the vote suppression issue: the troubling thing here is that this
country has a history of past discrimination at the ballot box against
minorities. Ask yourself, would it have been ok to discourage
African-Americans to vote in the 1960s and before through campaign
advertising?
============
Dr. Michael P. McDonald
Associate Professor, George Mason University
Non-Resident Senior Fellow, Brookings Institution
Mailing address:
(o) 703-993-4191 George Mason University
(f) 703-993-1399 Dept. of Public and International Affairs
mmcdon@gmu.edu 4400 University Drive - 3F4
http://elections.gmu.edu Fairfax, VA 22030-4444
-----Original Message-----
From: John Tanner [mailto:john.k.tanner@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 11:51 AM
To: jboppjr@aol.com
Cc: mmcdon@gmu.edu; election-law@mailman.lls.edu
Subject: Re: [EL] Latinos for Voter Suppression of Other Latinos?
I have no idea what voters think, but if NOTA wins (presumably where
both major nominees are struck by scandal or incapacity), none of the
rejected candidates should hold office or, for that matter, be
eligible for a second round that should be held promptly to find
someone the voters can stomach. Better to drop the NOTA option
On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 11:32 AM, <jboppjr@aol.com> wrote:
This seems troubling to me and I wonder what others think. I assume voters
think that by voting NOTA and it wins, then no one in fact would be
elected. This is also what one would assume by just the plain language of
it. Isn't this at least misleading and even a fraud on the voter? Jim
Bopp
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael McDonald <mmcdon@gmu.edu>
To: 'Election Law' <election-law@mailman.lls.edu>
Sent: Wed, Oct 20, 2010 10:16 am
Subject: Re: [EL] Latinos for Voter Suppression of Other Latinos?
The highest vote getting candidate wins.
============
Dr. Michael P. McDonald
Associate Professor, George Mason University
Non-Resident Senior Fellow, Brookings Institution
Mailing address:
(o) 703-993-4191 George Mason University
(f) 703-993-1399 Dept. of Public and International Affairs
mmcdon@gmu.edu 4400 University Drive - 3F4
http://elections.gmu.edu Fairfax, VA 22030-4444
-----Original Message-----
From: election-law-bounces@mailman.lls.edu
[mailto:election-law-bounces@mailman.lls.edu] On Behalf Of
john.k.tanner@gmail.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2010 8:55 AM
To: antoine.yoshinaka@ucr.edu; Scarberry, Mark; Rick Hasen
Cc: Election Law
Subject: Re: [EL] Latinos for Voter Suppression of Other Latinos?
In Nevada, what happens if NOTA wins a plurality or majority?
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: Antoine Yoshinaka <antoine.yoshinaka@ucr.edu>
Sender: election-law-bounces@mailman.lls.edu
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 23:06:30
To: Scarberry, Mark<Mark.Scarberry@pepperdine.edu>; Rick
Hasen<rick.hasen@lls.edu>
Reply-To: antoine.yoshinaka@ucr.edu
Cc: Election Law<election-law@mailman.lls.edu>
Subject: Re: [EL] Latinos for Voter Suppression of Other Latinos?
I think Annabelle Lever makes the point, in her recent article in the
British Journal of Political Science (linked by Rick a few weeks ago),
that
no country compels voters to cast a *valid* vote--only turning out to vote
is compulsory in countries such as Australia, Belgium, Brazil, etc.
In countries with both compulsory voting and some form of electronic
voting
(e.g., Belgium, Brazil), there is an option to cast a recorded blank vote.
In the recent presidential election in Brazil, for instance, about 3% of
voters cast a blank vote.
--------------------
Antoine Yoshinaka
Assistant Professor
Dept. of Political Science
2217 Watkins Hall
University of California, Riverside
Riverside, CA 92521
Tel:(951)827-4688
Fax:(951)827-3933
Email: antoine.yoshinaka@ucr.edu
Website:
http://politicalscience.ucr.edu/people/faculty/yoshinaka/index.html
---- Original message ----
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 22:28:17 -0700
From: "Scarberry, Mark" <Mark.Scarberry@pepperdine.edu>
Subject: RE: [EL] Latinos for Voter Suppression of Other Latinos?
To: <antoine.yoshinaka@ucr.edu>, "Rick Hasen" <rick.hasen@lls.edu>
Cc: "Election Law" <election-law@mailman.lls.edu>
I think it's pernicious to urge members of an ethnic group not to vote, at
least without providing an argument that makes at least some small amount
of
sense (such as, "none of the parties care about Latino concerns, so send a
message by not voting").
I wonder whether, in countries where voting is compulsory (Australia?
___?), a voter is permitted to cast a blank ballot. Or is the point that
the
voter must make a choice among the candidates?
Mark Scarberry
Pepperdine
________________________________
From: election-law-bounces@mailman.lls.edu on behalf of Antoine Yoshinaka
Sent: Tue 10/19/2010 9:41 PM
To: Rick Hasen
Cc: 'Election Law'
Subject: Re: [EL] Latinos for Voter Suppression of Other Latinos?
This is getting somewhat off-topic (apologies for that), but it's
interesting that in some countries, a "blank vote" is seen as a conscious
choice by voters, akin to Nevada's NOTA (e.g., France's "vote blanc"), and
qualitatively different from a spoiled ballot. In many instances (e.g.,
the
French Communists in 1969, or more recently Le Pen in 1995 and 2007),
candidates have urged their supporters either to stay home or come to the
polls and cast a blank vote instead of supporting one of the remaining
candidates.
So on this point, the evidence contradicts the assertion that no one would
find a reason to show up and vote NOTA on all elections on the ballot.
Empirically we find many voters in France, who, for whatever reason, show
up
at the polls and intentionally cast a blank vote for the only election or
referendum on the ballot. This is the case even in countries without
compulsory voting (e.g., France). Interestingly there is a movement to
recognize blank votes as a separate category in the vote tabulations (a
position espoused by the aptly-named Parti Blanc).
--------------------
Antoine Yoshinaka
Assistant Professor
Dept. of Political Science
2217 Watkins Hall
University of California, Riverside
Riverside, CA 92521
Tel:(951)827-4688
Fax:(951)827-3933
Email: antoine.yoshinaka@ucr.edu
Website:
http://politicalscience.ucr.edu/people/faculty/yoshinaka/index.html
---- Original message ----
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 21:12:00 -0700
From: Rick Hasen <rick.hasen@lls.edu>
Subject: Re: [EL] Latinos for Voter Suppression of Other Latinos?
To: antoine.yoshinaka@ucr.edu
Cc: Jeff Patch <jpatch@campaignfreedom.org>, "'Election Law'"
<election-law@mailman.lls.edu>
Very interesting question on the NOTA option. I
think Nevada is the only state with such an
option---perhaps there are others. I'm not a fan of
NOTA (except in a system of compulsory voting),
because it is the equivalent of suppressing turnout
in some races. (Presumably not in all races, as no
one would have a reason to show up at the polls and
vote NOTA in all races.)
I've flirted with the idea of supporting compulsory
voting laws, because I view voting as a
distribution of power among political equals, and
when turnout is not just generally suppressed, but
suppressed to skew results in demographic ways
(e.g., targeted at Latinos), it affects the
allocation of political power. So I think I object
most to the depression of turnout targeted at
particular groups, even under a NOTA system. That
is, if the Latinos for Reform ad was cast as "Vote
NOTA," I think I'd have the same objections.
But these are very tentative thoughts and I'd have
to consider it much more closely.
On 10/19/2010 8:53 PM, Antoine Yoshinaka wrote:
I don't usually contribute to the debates on the list, but I always find
these discussions very enlightening.
Rick (and others): since this is Nevada and voters have an option of
voting for "none of the above," would you find it objectionable if a group
such as LFR (but any group, really) were to urge voters to vote for "none
of
the above"? While this would not "depress turnout," my understanding of
the
way votes are counted in NV is that this would be functionally equivalent
to
staying home in terms of ascertaining the winner of the election. Would
the
objections raised in this case be valid?
Or what if, in a two-round election, some group is urging the supporters
of one of the candidates eliminated in the first round to stay home
instead
of voting for either of the top two remaining candidates? My
understanding
is that this routinely happens among supporters of fringe parties around
the
world.
I guess my question boils down to this: is the objection about
depressing
turnout per se, or rather about the tactic used to depress turnout and/or
the group targeted by the ad?
Cheers,
Antoine
--------------------
Antoine Yoshinaka
Assistant Professor
Dept. of Political Science
2217 Watkins Hall
University of California, Riverside
Riverside, CA 92521
Tel:(951)827-4688
Fax:(951)827-3933
Email: antoine.yoshinaka@ucr.edu
Website:
http://politicalscience.ucr.edu/people/faculty/yoshinaka/index.html
---- Original message ----
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 19:51:05 -0700
From: election-law-bounces@mailman.lls.edu (on behalf of Rick Hasen
<rick.hasen@lls.edu>)
Subject: Re: [EL] Latinos for Voter Suppression of Other Latinos?
To: Jeff Patch <jpatch@campaignfreedom.org>
Cc: "'Election Law'" <election-law@mailman.lls.edu>
I don't have time for a full reply now. But let me
confirm that yes, indeed, I meant astounding in a
decidedly negative way. I'd have to go back to
look, but I believe that every state's voting law
makes it illegal to pay people not to vote. That
law seems to reflect a broad social consensus
against paying to suppress turnout. (In contrast,
state laws are mixed about payment for turnout.)
Just like it is illegal to pay people not to vote,
it seems objectionable to urge people not to do
so---and even worse when it is targeted at a
particular group of people.
As far as whether someone of a particular race or
ethnicity could be biased against that very same
race or ethnicity, certainly that's the case with
some people.
I think you are on more solid ground when you say
that this ad is not likely to sway many voters not
to vote. But that certainly seems its intent.
(That, or getting publicity for the group or person
running the ad.)
On 10/19/2010 6:25 PM, Jeff Patch wrote:
Rick refers to the message of the rejected Latinos
for Reform ad, which urges Hispanics to stay home
in November in protest of the Democrats' lack of
action on immigration reform, as "astounding."
My interpretation of his comments is that he
perceives this proposed ad campaign as
"astounding" in a decidedly negative way, akin to
vote suppression by passing out flyers in an
African American neighborhood with the wrong
Election Day listed. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I got
that impression from the link he selected, which
referred to the ad as an effort to "suppress the
vote of various racial minorities." Sen. Majority
Leader Harry Reid has also referred to the ad as
"an example of "Hispanic voter suppression." A Las
Vegas-based Hispanic group claimed that "[t]hey
are trying to take away our privileged right to
vote through scare tactics and fear mongering."
Univision, a private business, has every right to
decline to air the ad, despite its dominant
position in reaching Hispanic audience. A few
points/questions, though:
(1) The group is run by prominent Hispanic
conservatives who have been involved in
immigration reform for years. It's pretty hard to
see some sort of a racist motive here, no?
(2) The premise of this ad as a voter suppression
tool seems-like most efforts to characterize
independent ads as somehow corrupting or
nefarious-to be that Latino voters are so gullible
that they can be lured by the ad's Siren call into
not voting.
There's certainly no intent on the part of the
ad's critics to imply that Latinos cannot decide
for themselves how to vote, but the suggestion
that the ad is reprehensible implies that people
are too dim to decide political matters on their
own when faced with controversial-or even
misleading-advertising. That strikes me as pretty
condescending toward the democratic process.
(3) Removing a potential racial motive, this
tactic seems perfectly legitimate. I'm a
libertarian. In 2008 I did not vote, partly
because of an absentee ballot snafu. But I ended
up not remedying the mix-up because I was
frustrated with McCain's general election campaign
even after spending three months volunteering for
the primary campaign in various states. As a
rational person, I'm aware my vote didn't matter,
but I don't understand why it's illegitimate for a
group to urge people to not vote if a political
party or candidate fails to act on their issues.
Perhaps this ad would have been less controversial
if it urged Hispanics to write-in someone or vote
third party, but that's a bit more of a
complicated message. But, I'm wondering if Rick
would feel the same way if, in 2012, NORML ran ads
in California asking marijuana users not to vote
because no Democrats supported Prop. 19-or is
there something specifically objectionable about
an ad targeting a certain ethnic constituency of
voters?
Jeff Patch
From: election-law-bounces@mailman.lls.edu
[mailto:election-law-bounces@mailman.lls.edu] On
Behalf Of Rick Hasen
Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 12:11 AM
To: Election Law
Subject: [EL] Electionlawblog news and commentary
10/19/10
October 18, 2010
"Don't Vote This November"
That's the astounding message of an ad from
"Latinos for Reform." Here's an NPR story on the
group from 2008. Here's the group's press release
about the new ad. The most recent filing of this
527 organization is not illuminating. Here's some
2008 financial information.
Posted by Rick Hasen at 09:01 PM
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William H. Hannon Distinguished Professor of Law
Loyola Law School
919 Albany Street
Los Angeles, CA 90015-1211
(213)736-1466
(213)380-3769 - fax
rick.hasen@lls.edu
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http://electionlawblog.org <http://electionlawblog.org/>
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William H. Hannon Distinguished Professor of Law
Loyola Law School
919 Albany Street
Los Angeles, CA 90015-1211
(213)736-1466
(213)380-3769 - fax
rick.hasen@lls.edu
http://www.lls.edu/academics/faculty/hasen.html
http://electionlawblog.org <http://electionlawblog.org/>
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