Subject: Re: [EL] photo IDs and detection of voter fraud
From: Larry Levine
Date: 12/3/2010, 6:57 PM
To: "David A. Schultz" <dschultz@gw.hamline.edu>, "election-law@mailman.lls.edu" <election-law@mailman.lls.edu>, "Mark.Scarberry@pepperdine.edu" <Mark.Scarberry@pepperdine.edu>

I'm not sure the matter of voter confidence is relevant. I've never seen anything indicating voters lack confidence in the process of voting. I have seen information that indicates some voters have questions about vote counting, particularly when there is no paper ballot or backup. So, voter confidence as a reason for photo ID seems to be a red herring.
Neither have I seen any evidence of wide spread voter fraud, let alone fraud that would be caught or deterred by photo IDs, in spite of the frequency with which the issue is raised on this list.
It seems to me that the call for photo IDs in the political realm always comes from the same political party. Could the entire subject be a red herring?
Larry 
----- Original Message -----
From: David A. Schultz
To: LarryLevine@earthlink.net ; election-law@mailman.lls.edu ; Mark.Scarberry@pepperdine.edu
Sent: Friday, December 03, 2010 2:32 PM
Subject: RE: [EL] photo IDs and detection of voter fraud

Mark:
 
You are still making my point.  They will argue that current studies fail to document the full extent of fraud because we do not have photo IDs.  At the same time they argue that the use of IDS deters fraud.    You cannot argue this points at the same time.   The reason is that you have no created an assertionwhere it is impossible to falsify either claim empirically.
 
I am not interested in what someone can assert but in what on can prove.


David Schultz, Professor
Editor, Journal of Public Affairs Education (JPAE)
Hamline University
School of Business
570 Asbury Street
Suite 308
St. Paul, Minnesota 55104
651.523.2858 (voice)
651.523.3098 (fax)
http://davidschultz.v2efoliomn.mnscu.edu/
http://works.bepress.com/david_schultz/
http://schultzstake.blogspot.com/

>>> "Scarberry, Mark" 12/03/10 4:06 PM >>>

The proponents of photo ID are not arguing that it is needed to detect fraud (so that we can know how much fraud has been occurring). Rather, they are arguing that it is needed to prevent fraud. Most of the prevention would result from deterrence due to the fear of detection, not from actual detection of voter fraud. As Larry Levine?s post suggests, detection would result only in cases of very inept attempted fraud. As he put it, if someone shows up with photo ID that has someone else?s picture on it, that ?would be evidence of stupidity more than fraud.?

As best I can tell, the evidence is strong that currently there are few instances of actual voter fraud of the kind that would be deterred or detected by photo ID laws. Perhaps the stronger argument for such laws is not that they will prevent voter fraud but rather that they will enhance voter confidence in the system. It might also be argued that photo ID laws will give some protection against future corruption of the voting system by future schemes to use voter fraud to rig elections. Isn?t it the case that such schemes have been used in the past? Isn?t it reasonable to be concerned that they might be used again? Of course, to the extent fake photo IDs can be obtained easily, the protection given by a photo ID scheme is reduced. But somehow it seems less likely that people will be willing to obtain fake photo ID for purposes of voting than that they could be induced to show up at multiple precincts to vote using different names.

Mark Scarberry

Pepperdine Univ. School of Law

From: Larry Levine [mailto:LarryLevine@earthlink.net]
Sent: Friday, December 03, 2010 12:39 PM
To: David A. Schultz; election-law@mailman.lls.edu; Scarberry, Mark
Subject: Re: [EL] photo IDs and detection of voter fraud

That's the kind of evidence that will be suspect on its face.

Larry

----- Original Message -----

From: David A. Schultz

To: election-law@mailman.lls.edu ; Mark.Scarberry@pepperdine.edu

Sent: Friday, December 03, 2010 12:32 PM

Subject: Re: [EL] photo IDs and detection of voter fraud

You make my point exactly.

One cannot simultaneously contend that photo IDs are needed to detect fraud and then also argue that the implementation and use of them reveals no increased fraud because it deters attempted fraud.

However, I am still looking for evidence of increased detection of fraud as a result of IDs.

David Schultz, Professor
Editor, Journal of Public Affairs Education (JPAE)
Hamline University
School of Business
570 Asbury Street
Suite 308
St. Paul, Minnesota 55104
651.523.2858 (voice)
651.523.3098 (fax)
http://davidschultz.v2efoliomn.mnscu.edu/
http://works.bepress.com/david_schultz/
http://schultzstake.blogspot.com/


>>> "Scarberry, Mark" 12/03/10 2:25 PM >>>

The tricky point here is that voter photo ID requirements might be supported because of uncertainty about the amount of voter fraud, but, to the extent implementation of voter photo ID requirements deter *attempts* to commit voter fraud (or are unsuccessful in detecting voter fraud), little useful data will be generated. I don?t suppose any variation in turnout could be determined to be caused by deterrence of voter fraud, because lots of other factors are at work.

Mark Scarberry

Pepperdine Univ. School of Law

From: election-law-bounces@mailman.lls.edu [mailto:election-law-bounces@mailman.lls.edu] On Behalf Of David A. Schultz
Sent: Friday, December 03, 2010 11:46 AM
To: election-law@mailman.lls.edu
Subject: [EL] photo IDs and detection of voter fraud

One of the arguments among advocates of photo voter IDs is that currently we do not know the full scope of potential voter fraud without them. This is because the fraud is undetected. There is thus an empirical argument here. Specifically, the implementation of photo ID for voting should reveal or detect fraud that was otherwise previously hidden.

Are there any studies or analysis on the use of photo voter IDs that address this issue? Have any states that have instituted photo IDs produced numbers or stats on changes in reported or detected fraud? I would be interested to see or know about these studies for a paper I am constructing.

Thank you.

David Schultz, Professor
Editor, Journal of Public Affairs Education (JPAE)
Hamline University
School of Business
570 Asbury Street
Suite 308
St. Paul, Minnesota 55104
651.523.2858 (voice)
651.523.3098 (fax)
http://davidschultz.v2efoliomn.mnscu.edu/
http://works.bepress.com/david_schultz/
http://schultzstake.blogspot.com/

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