Subject: Re: [EL] a "thumping" in the U.K. AV referendum
From: Tom Round
Date: 5/7/2011, 2:25 PM
To: "election-law@mailman.lls.edu" <election-law@mailman.lls.edu>

(1)     A fair assessment of the record of FPTP
voting should look at its failures as well as its
successes. Present-day Zimbabwe, Bangladesh, and
Pakistan must be added to the ledger, alongside
apartheid-era South Africa. No country that is
not a former British colony granted independence
has voluntarily adopted FPTP in the past century.
Even former British colonies like Ireland,
Australia, Malta and New Zealand have abandoned FPTP.

(2)     I would query whether the US actually
does use FPTP voting in the same sense that
India, Canada, the UK and Malaysia do. The
universal use of primaries (govt-run, conducted
by secret ballot) makes the US closer to a
French-style runoff system (albeit with a
time-lag of months rather than weeks between the
polls) than to its UK ancestor (where there is
only a single election and where less-viable
contenders are identified by opinion polls rather
than by actual votes cast). However, with a very
long time-lag, or if more than two major
candidates run at the general election, the US
system has similar features to the British.

(3)     Retaining FPTP voting may be a result
rather than a cause of political stability. When
countries undergo political upheavals, they need
to re-assess their institutions and almost
invariably this involves movement towards an
electoral system that wastes fewer rather than
more votes; almost never is the choice in favour
of FPTP over a proportional system. Also, after
political upheaval, political allegiances and
cleavages are in flux; political parties are
forced to operate under something more like a
Rawlsian "veil of ignorance" - they can't guess
in advance whether their vote percentage will be
in the 40s, the 20s or the 10s - and faced with
this uncertainty, the safest course for any given
party is to play it risk-averse and support a
proportional system, rather than gamble on a FPTP
system that might give it 55% of the seats with
40% of the votes but might equally reduce it to
2% of the seats with 25% of the votes. Finally,
after political upheavals it is harder for
established players with vested interests in the
status quo to write the rules so as to make it
harder for new rivals to run candidates and/or poll votes and/or win seats.

It is revealing that almost never will a body
that has power to write the rules for its own
elections, choose FPTP voting for itself, even if
the same body thinks FPTP is good enough for the
unwashed. The British Conservatives, of course,
use an exhaustive ballot to elect their party
leader - David Cameron won even though David
Davis had a plurality on the first count - as
does the House of Commons when choosing its
Speaker. Republicans and Democrats alike in the
US would never consider a presidential candidate
to be finally nominated just because s/he had a
42% or 43% plurality of the delegates' votes at
the party convention. "A plurality winner for
thee, but not for me" is the stance taken by
politicians in the small number of democracies that still use FPTP.



At 06:25 8/05/2011, Smith, Brad wrote:

My two cents - it strikes me that countries that
have relied on first past the post are to a
disproportionate degree among the most stable,
free and prosperous democracies.  I've never
quite seen why the impulse to tinker with success.

Bradley A. Smith
Josiah H. Blackmore II/Shirley M. Nault Designated Professor of Law
Capital University Law School
303 E. Broad St.
Columbus, OH 43215
(614) 236-6317
http://www.law.capital.edu/Faculty/Bios/bsmith.asp


From: election-law-bounces@mailman.lls.edu on behalf of Rob Richie
Sent: Sat 5/7/2011 1:55 PM
To: Scarberry, Mark
Cc: JBoppjr@aol.com; election-law@mailman.lls.edu; David@holtzmanlaw.com
Subject: Re: [EL] a "thumping" in the U.K. AV referendum


I'd take Condorcet voting over plurality voting
in a heartbeat, but I suspect it will be very
hard to convince people to adopt it -- certainly
it will be harder than winning IRV-alternative
vote, which can be hard as it is. A couple
things Condorcet voters have to explain:

* A candidate can win who is nobody's first choice.

* You can have a cycle where no candidate
defeats every other candidate (e.g, A defeats B,
B defeats C and C defeats A) - -and then have to
get to tiebreaking procedures. Due to this, your
selection of a second choice can count against
the chances of your first choice, which will trouble people.

More broadly, Condorcet discounts the "tribal"
reality of politics as it is. Take Larry
Levine's, bitter messages yesterday against Jean
Quan's win in the mayoral race in Oakland last
year. I think Quan's victory was quite clear.
She defeats Don Perata in a one-on-one
comparison (both citywide and in well over half
the precincts) and won more votes than any
Oakland mayoral candidate had won in decades,
but Larry can't get over the fact that she had
fewer first choices than Perata. Imagine if
instead of Quan winning it was some candidate
who trailed much further behind in first choices
as in 4th or 5th place in 1st choices. Accepting
that result will take a real  change in what people expect winners to achieve.

I'll use one real example of another aspect to
consider: the 2009 Burlington mayoral race with
IRV. The plurality vote leader in first choices
was the Republican candidate. He lost to the
second place Progressive Party candidate in
instant runoff voting, just as he would have
lost to him in a runoff  if all the same voters
had come back to vote.. He also would have lost
to the third place Democrat in a one-on-one race
- and so would the Progressive. So the
third-place Democrat was the Condorcet winner,
but observers of that race would generally say
that the Democrat ran a lousy, uninspiring
campaign. Condorcet would reward him just by his
positioning on the ideological spectrum (between
the Progressives voters and the Republican
voters). Even when working clearly, therefore,
Condorcet would create a kind of "tyranny of the
center", with that centrist candidate winning
even if running a lame campaign. (And as a coda,
all the political energy against IRV came from
backers of the Republican candidate, the
"condorcet loser," rather than the
Condorcet-winning Democrat who backed keeping IRV despite his defeat).

Again, this critique is all relative, but I like
the fact that IRV winners have to go out there
and earn first choices by inspiring some real
support -- even as they also get value out of
earning second and third choices of backers of
others candidates. An intern did a thoughtful
piece on this issue last year -- see:
http://www.fairvote.org/why-the-condorcet-criterion-is-less-important-than-it-seems/

Rob
On Sat, May 7, 2011 at 12:29 PM, Scarberry, Mark
<Mark.Scarberry@pepperdine.edu> wrote:

If you require mandatory ranking then you could
use a Condorcet approach, right? My math whiz
friend says that you only need very minimal
assumptions to get a Condorcet ranking out of
the voting, if each voter ranks each candidate.



I’m not a Condorcet expert by any means, and
this subject may have already been beaten to
death on this list. But my best understanding of
it is that you run each candidate against every
other candidate in head to head races, and the
one who beats all the others in these head to
head races is the Condorcet winner. It makes
sense to me to treat such a Condorcet winner as the winning candidate.



If every voter ranks every candidate then you
can derive the head to head results as long as
each voter’s preferences are transitive (if
that’s the term). But you still have the
possibility that A will beat B who beats C who
beats A. We’ve never had that happen in faculty
voting on new hires, but you need a way to break
the tie if you get such a “cycle.” Perhaps
someone can tell us whether there is a
jurisdiction that uses Condorcet voting, and how
likely it is that you will get a cycle.



Mark Scarberry



Mark S. Scarberry

Professor of Law

Pepperdine Univ. School of Law

Malibu, CA 90263

(310) 506-4667



From: election-law-bounces@mailman.lls.edu
[mailto:election-law-bounces@mailman.lls.edu] On Behalf Of Rob Richie
Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2011 8:22 AM
To: JBoppjr@aol.com
Cc: David@holtzmanlaw.com; election-law@mailman.lls.edu

Subject: Re: [EL] a "thumping" in the U.K. AV referendum



Hi, Jim,



There are a couple issues here.



1. Some American jurisdictions have implemented
instant runoff voting with a limitation on
rankings tied to current voting equipment
inflexibility -- three rankings in such cities
as Oakland, Minneapolis and San Francisco. That
means it's possible that you could rank three
candidates who don't end up in the final two in the IRV tally.



This limitation on three rankings is subject of
a federal lawsuit against San Francisco, but it
is a losing case -- by summary judgment at the
district level and soon from the 9th circuit,
based on the tenor of oral argument. The
plaintiffs' argument is dependent on seeing each
round as a "separate election," which is not the
case. If plurality voting is okay, with voters
limited to one ranking, then giving voters to
backup opportunities to cast a decisive vote is okay too.



2. More broadly, most implementations of IRV
don't limit rankings, but allow voters to
abstain from ranking every candidate. If you
rank some candidates and then choose not to rank
remaining candidates, you are expressing
indifference to those remaining candidates --
essentially saying you wouldn't have voted if
those were the only candidates running. If we
grant voters the right to abstain, you can see
how that decision to abstain from ranking is no
more of a dilution of the will of the voters
than saying that all the people who don't vote
at all should be counted against the winner.



Australia has mandatory voting -- and mandatory
ranking in its IRV elections. So if you want to
force people to express an opinion, you can --
but I suspect a lot of Americans might resist
that notion, as abstention is one means of expressing a political opinion.



Given Jon. Huntsman's potential presidential
candidacy in a very divided presidential field
next year in which "winners" of early contests
may have low percentages of the vote, there's
value in taking a look at an IRV election in
which he participated: at the 2004 Utah state
convention with several thousand votesrs  See coverage of that race here:

http://archive.fairvote.org/irv/utahindex.html



And the actual count, round by round, here --
there were eight candidates and the field
narrowed to two, with those two going onto a
primary because neither earned 60% to win the nomination outright:

http://archive.fairvote.org/irv/utahresults.htm



best regards,

Rob Richie



On Sat, May 7, 2011 at 10:13 AM, <JBoppjr@aol.com> wrote:

     As I understand it, the result of
"ranked-choice" is that some voters are left
out, even potentially a lot of them, if they
did not "rank" any of the remaining candidates.
How can this result in an election that
reflects the will of the voters? Jim Bopp



In a message dated 5/6/2011 6:51:56 P.M. Eastern
Daylight Time, David@holtzmanlaw.com writes:

In Los Angeles, the League of Women Voters
advocates using the “alternative vote.”  We call
it “instant runoff” or “ranked-choice”
voting.  Many politicians do resist it, since
the existing system has served them
well.  Nevertheless, some members of the L.A.
City Council, just two shy of the number needed,
were willing to put it to a vote in March.

Voters here would likely have embraced the
change, because ranked-choice ballots allow
better expression of voters’ preferences, and
instant runoffs (elimination of last-place
candidates until a candidate receives a majority
of the votes for candidates who remain) make
elections fairer ­ and spare everybody the costs
of a separate runoff election day.

While the British Prime Minister belittled the
proposed election method as “only used by
Australia, Fiji, and Papua New Guinea,” he left
out neighboring Ireland, and paid no attention
to the method’s success in San Francisco and
Oakland, and at UCLA, where the Undergraduate
Students Association Council recently voted unanimously to retain it.

  -- David A. Holtzman
President, League of Women Voters of Los Angeles

(I wrote this in response to the L.A. Times
story,
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-britain-election-20110506,0,3383863.story)


On 5/6/2011 2:15 PM, Rob Richie wrote:

Yes, indeed. British voters sent a message that
they don't want a voting system that will cost
them 250 million pounds, give some voters more
votes than other voters and give the currently
despised Liberal Democrats ongoing power to
control government. Now what they would think
about the alternative vote as it actually is, who knows...



One must accept the voice of the people on this,
of course, and it does demonstrate that new
voting rules can have difficulty withstanding
over-the-top miscategorization, particularly
when coming from people (like the David Cameron
for the Conservative Party and some of the "old
lions" of the Labour  Party that opposed AV) that people want to believe in.



For folks recognizing the origins of our
electoral rules in Britain, however, there is an
important story to be told in reading the
article Rick circulated to the bottom. For one,
the genie is out of the bottle as far as a
neat-and-tidy two-party system there. The
Scottish National Party won a majority of seats
in Scottish assembly elections, for example, and
the two major parties (just like in last year's
elections) continue to share a growing share of
votes with other parties (last year, a third of
voters didn't vote for the two major parties,
and more than half of districts were won with
less than 50%).. Plurality, "top of the heap"
voting isn't meant for such a political reality,
so the conversation about what to do about it
will continue whether the Tories want it to or not.



Second, the UK is far ahead of us in using
alternative voting systems in key elections.
Scotland and Wales used "mixed member"
proportional representation (MMP_ yesterday, for
example. MMP is an intriguing method developed
with American leadership in Germany after World
War 2 that combines winner-take-all districts
elections with proportional voting, one also
adopted in a national referendum in New Zealand
in 1993. Northern Ireland yesterday used the
choice voting, AV-type single transferable vote
system to elect its regional assembly and local
governments, as Scotland does in its local
elections as well. Next year, London will elect
its mayor with a form of the alternative vote
(simplified to voters having two rankings and
candidates needing to finish in the top two to win) and MMP for city council.



So onward, despite a lot of disappointment in our reform world,

Rob Richie



On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 4:21 PM, Rick Hasen <rhasen@law.uci.edu> wrote:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/may/06/av-over-yes-campaign-routed
--
Rick Hasen
Visiting Professor
UC Irvine School of Law
401 E. Peltason Dr., Suite 1000
Irvine, CA 92697-8000
949.824.3072 - office
949.824.0495 - fax
rhasen@law.uci.edu
http://law.uci.edu/faculty/page1_r_hasen.html

William H. Hannon Distinguished Professor of Law
Loyola Law School
http://electionlawblog.org
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--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Respect for Every Vote and Every Voice"

Rob Richie
Executive Director

FairVote
6930 Carroll Avenue, Suite 610
Takoma Park, MD 20912
www.fairvote.org  rr@fairvote.org
(301) 270-4616

Please support FairVote through action and
tax-deductible donations -- see
http://fairvote.org/donate. For federal
employees, please consider  a gift to us through
the Combined Federal Campaign (FairVote's  CFC number is 10132.) Thank you!




--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Respect for Every Vote and Every Voice"

Rob Richie
Executive Director

FairVote
6930 Carroll Avenue, Suite 610
Takoma Park, MD 20912
www.fairvote.org  rr@fairvote.org
(301) 270-4616

Please support FairVote through action and
tax-deductible donations -- see
http://fairvote.org/donate. For federal
employees, please consider  a gift to us through
the Combined Federal Campaign (FairVote's  CFC number is 10132.) Thank you!

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