[EL] Case in point: Secret signatures and secret ballots

[Soren Dayton]

Perhaps this case illustrates the real problem with this discussion. There's
a tension between stopping fraud, which basically requires public disclosure
of some form, and coercion and retribution. Furthermore, the electoral
system is fundamentally adversarial, so, in general, one would expect the
other side to have the interest in checking the fraud here.

So does anonymity require giving up on the idea of fraud checking? Do we do
this for ballot access in general or just petitions?

On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 10:30 AM, Scott F. Bieniek
<sbieniek at bienieklaw.com>wrote:

> The fraud detected by the student was detected using traditional methods,
> and did not turn on the public disclosure of the petitions:
>
> "signatures that he says appeared to be written in the same handwriting..."
>
> The student detected the fraud without any need to confirm that an
> individual actually signed the petition (it was evident on their face),
> although such reports certainly validate his findings after the fact.
>
> Review of ballot petitions is hardly the only instance where we rely on a
> government employee to verify the accuracy of a document. Every year,
> millions of Americans file tax returns with the Internal Revenue Service.
> With the exception of income reported on information returns (W-2, 1099,
> etc), the entire system is premised upon an individual taxpayer voluntarily
> reporting any and all income.
>
> If you are in favor of public disclosure for ballot petitions, why not
> require public disclosure of tax returns? Your neighbor is in a far better
> position than the IRS agent to determine whether you accurately reported the
> income. Your neighbor after all, can see that new boat sitting in your
> driveway, or the extension you just added to your home.
>
> -Scott F. Bieniek
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 10:10 AM, Bev Harris <bev at blackboxvoting.org>wrote:
>
>> The news story excerpted below describes a member of the public, a college
>> student, who sought to authenticate the accounting on petitions.
>>
>> " Nees ...  delved into the Byzantine and complicated world of petition
>> signatures and found reams of signatures that he says appeared to be
>> written in
>> the same handwriting, some apparently copied from previous petitions."
>>
>> The county attorney is now investigating.
>>
>> This is an accounting issue, not a privacy issue. The petition signers
>> need to
>> be publicly disclosed because that's the only way the public can
>> authenticate a
>> petition.
>>
>> If you use a hidden accounting system controlled by the government(ie, the
>> secretary of state and persons he chooses will examine the signatures and
>> tell
>> us the result, without any way for us to authenticate) you alter the
>> structural
>> framework of the democratic system, allowing the government to choose
>> itself
>> (in the case of a petition for a candidate) and to choose the rules for
>> its own
>> governance (in the case of policy petitions).
>>
>>
>>
>> Bev Harris
>> Founder - Black Box Voting
>> http://www.blackboxvoting.org
>>
>> * * * * *
>>
>> Government is the servant of the people, and not the master of them. The
>> people, in delegating authority, do not give their public servants the
>> right
>> to decide what is good for the people to know and what is not good for
>> them to
>> know. We insist on remaining informed so that we may retain control over
>> the
>> instruments of government we have created.
>>
>> Black Box Voting is a nonpartisan, nonprofit 501c(3) elections watchdog
>> group
>> funded entirely by citizen donations.
>> http://www.blackboxvoting.org/donate.html
>> Black Box Voting
>> 330 SW 43rd St Suite K
>> PMB 547
>> Renton WA 98057
>>
>>
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>
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