[EL] deaths after voting by mail
Dan Meek
dan at meek.net
Thu Aug 9 01:00:42 PDT 2012
In Oregon, a vote-by-mail vote is considered cast when it is received by
the county clerk. In fact, once cast it cannot be changed, even if the
person goes to the county clerk and obtains another ballot and votes the
second ballot. Only the first ballot counts. So, when the person
"votes," the person is most likely alive, as there is about a 1 or at
most 2-day difference between mailing the ballot and its receipt by the
county clerk.
Dan Meek
503-293-9021 dan at meek.net <mailto:dan at meek.net> 866-926-9646 fax
On 8/8/2012 5:14 PM, Daniel Abramson wrote:
I find this surprising and perhaps unconstitutional. A deceased person
has no constitutional rights, yet their vote is diluting those of the
living. In a close enough election it would make for an interesting
challenge. I suppose a similar issue would be a person who renounced
their US citizenship after voting by mail, but before election day. I
wouldn't think that vote should count.
Daniel
On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 11:05 AM, Riemer, Justin (SBE)
<Justin.Riemer at sbe.virginia.gov <mailto:Justin.Riemer at sbe.virginia.gov>>
wrote:
Virginia enacted legislation in 2011 to explicitly allow for the
counting of absentee ballots by individuals who vote absentee and
die before Election Day. Please see link here:
http://lis.virginia.gov/cgi-bin/legp604.exe?111+ful+CHAP0654
The legislation passed unanimously.
Justin Riemer
Deputy Secretary
Virginia State Board of Elections
Office Phone: (804) 864-8904 <tel:%28804%29%20864-8904>
Mobile: (804) 366-5330 <tel:%28804%29%20366-5330>
SBE Website: http://www.sbe.virginia.gov
-----Original Message-----
From: law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu
<mailto:law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu>
[mailto:law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu
<mailto:law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu>] On Behalf Of
Lillie Coney
Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2012 1:21 PM
To: Lowenstein, Daniel
Cc: 'Doug Hess'; 'Election Law'
Subject: Re: [EL] deaths after voting by mail
In my view, absentee ballots cast by persons prior to their death
should be treated
like dying declarations.
There are very few ballots that fall into this category and their
treatment
should be with the utmost respect for the intent to the voter to have
their voice heard--many of them knowing that they would not see election
day. The tools are available for voters to cast ballots in this method
and overtime states have become aware that voters who cast absentee
or early voting ballots can die before election day -- accidents, sudden
or succumbing to long term illnesses.
It is left to each state to decide how they will deal with votes
cast prior to an
election by a person who later dies. The only question for the
process is did
the voter cast the ballot--this is especially important for
terminally ill patients
in residential or hospice care.. This may be resolvable by a
witness' signature
preferably a medical care advocate on the exterior of the ballot
envelop--not
need to expose the ballot to a third party only the attestation that
the person
can under terms of state election law freely cast an independent ballot.
This last suggestion is to guard against very close elections when
the number
of these ballots fall within the margin of victory.
Lillie Coney
On Aug 3, 2012, at 2:09 PM, Lowenstein, Daniel wrote:
> I am reminded of G.K. Chesterton, who observed that some
so-called democrats (small "d," of course) took pride in believing
that participation in government should not be determined by the
accident of birth, but went further by insisting that participation
should not be determined by the accident of death.
>
> Best,
>
> Daniel H. Lowenstein
> Director, Center for the Liberal Arts and Free
Institutions (CLAFI)
> UCLA Law School
> 405 Hilgard
> Los Angeles, California 90095-1476
> 310-825-5148
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu
<mailto:law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu>
[law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu
<mailto:law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu>] On Behalf Of
Ken Mayer [kmayer at polisci.wisc.edu <mailto:kmayer at polisci.wisc.edu>]
> Sent: Friday, August 03, 2012 9:59 AM
> To: 'Steve Kolbert'; 'Doug Hess'
> Cc: 'Election Law'
> Subject: Re: [EL] deaths after voting by mail
>
> Short answer: not enough votes to worry about, there's nothing
that could be done if there were, and even if something could be
done, it wouldn't be right. By any reasonable definition, a vote is
a vote when it is cast, no matter what happens to the voter
subsequently.
>
> In Oregon, according to the Public Health division, about
2,500-2,900 people die in a typical
month<http://public.health.oregon.gov/BirthDeathCertificates/VitalStatistics/FinalData/Documents/10/deathmo.pdf>,
with about 98% of those deaths occurring in the voting age
population<http://public.health.oregon.gov/BirthDeathCertificates/VitalStatistics/FinalData/Documents/10/deathage.pdf>.
Turnout as a percentage of VAP in 2008 was 63% according to
Michael McDonald's United States Election
Project<http://elections.gmu.edu/Turnout_2008G.html>. If we assume
that deaths over a month are evenly distributed, and that votes are
cast roughly evenly over the month, that gives an estimated
approximate upper limit (back of the envelope calculation; the
actual numbers will be slightly different, but not by enough to
worry about) of the number of votes potentially cast by people who
died before election day as:
>
> 2,900*.98*.63*.5 = 895 votes
>
> The key quantity here isn't this number, but the margin of
victory for the winning candidate among these voters. An election
would have to be pretty close for this to make a difference, but
let's say these voters went 60%-40% for a candidate in a two
candidate race. That 20% margin reduces this 895 votes to 179
votes. That could make a difference in a really tight race, but
there aren't many statewide races decided by this margin.
>
> But it doesn't really make any difference, because for these
votes to be rejected, you'd have to hang on to every vote until you
got confirmation that the voter had actually died, which is not
workable.
>
> This isn't different than a voter who casts a ballot on election
day, but who dies (or moves to another state) before the results
are certified.
>
> Ken Mayer
>
>
> Kenneth R. Mayer
> Professor, Department of Political Science
> Affiliate Faculty, La Follette School of Public Affairs
> University of Wisconsin - Madison
> 110 North Hall/1050 Bascom Mall
> Madison, WI 53706
> (608) 263-2286 (voice)/ (608) 265-2663 (fax)
>
>
>
>
> From: law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu
<mailto:law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu>
[mailto:law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu
<mailto:law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu>] On Behalf Of
Steve Kolbert
> Sent: Friday, August 03, 2012 11:09 AM
> To: Doug Hess
> Cc: Election Law
> Subject: Re: [EL] deaths after voting by mail
>
>
> You can find a discussion of the applicable Virginia law in Op.
Va. Att'y Gen. 10-104 (Oct. 26, 2010), available at
http://www.oag.state.va.us/Opinions%20and%20Legal%20Resources/OPINIONS/2010opns/10-104-Lind.pdf
>
> SUMMARY:
> When a general registrar knows an absentee voter has died prior
to election day, but after having voted by absentee ballot, the
registrar must cancel that voter's registration, and the absentee
ballot should not be counted; but that in those circumstances in
which absentee ballots are cast prior to election day in a manner by
which the absentee ballot no longer can be set aside, the general
registrar who knows of the voter's death shall cancel that voter's
registration, but election officials are not otherwise required to
perform the impossible task of not counting the deceased voter's ballot.
>
> Steve Kolbert
> (202) 422-2588 <tel:%28202%29%20422-2588>
> steve.kolbert at gmail.com
<mailto:steve.kolbert at gmail.com><mailto:steve.kolbert at gmail.com
<mailto:steve.kolbert at gmail.com>>
> @Pronounce_the_T
> On Aug 3, 2012 11:54 AM, "Doug Hess" <douglasrhess at gmail.com
<mailto:douglasrhess at gmail.com><mailto:douglasrhess at gmail.com
<mailto:douglasrhess at gmail.com>>> wrote:
>
> Let's say you vote by mail and then kick the bucket before
ballots are counted or before election day. Assuming election
officials notice this about you and spot your ballot, do laws or
regulations address counting that ballot? I assume that if you were
eligible to vote when you did, that dieing before ballots are
counted doesn't matter.
>
> If an election is entirely by mail and you can get ballots 30
days in advance (is that standard?), just how many adults go six
feet under in that period. I'm wondering--for Friday amusement
partially--if the number or percentage is enough that the dead can
determine an outcome?
>
> Doug
>
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