[EL] deaths after voting by mail

Wed Aug 8 19:04:46 PDT 2012

I guess it depends on defining when the moment of a "vote" occurs.
Presumably the electorate as a body was not that different from 30 days ago
(it's more likely some few voters will change their voting preference, or
come up with one, in the last weeks than an equal number will die, no?).
Besides, you have to draw the line somewhere and it might be more
disruptive to try to sort it out. (Anybody for debates on who died at
11:59pm on the Monday before Election Day or or 12:01 am on Election Day?
What about somebody that commits a felony AFTER they voted or slips into a
"brain-dead" state and are near-death save for a hospital machine...are
there votes to be cancelled to?) And how can you be certain you
correctly gathered the right lists and did the right match of deaths to
ballots (how would that be done in a timely fashion?).  I assume courts
believe a certain amount of irregularity shouldn't throw an election into
chaos if everybody played by those rules announced and understood before
hand.

Anyway, the original question was meant to be somewhat light-hearted and to
point out that flaws in mechanisms will always make close races nearly
impossible to decipher.

Douglas R. Hess, PhD
Washington, DC

On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 8:14 PM, Daniel Abramson
<danielkabramson at gmail.com>wrote:

> I find this surprising and perhaps unconstitutional.  A deceased person
> has no constitutional rights, yet their vote is diluting those of the
> living.  In a close enough election it would make for an interesting
> challenge.   I suppose a similar issue would be a person who renounced
> their US citizenship after voting by mail, but before election day.  I
> wouldn't think that vote should count.
>
> Daniel
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 11:05 AM, Riemer, Justin (SBE) <
> Justin.Riemer at sbe.virginia.gov> wrote:
>
>> Virginia enacted legislation in 2011 to explicitly allow for the counting
>> of absentee ballots by individuals who vote absentee and die before
>> Election Day. Please see link here:
>> http://lis.virginia.gov/cgi-bin/legp604.exe?111+ful+CHAP0654
>>
>> The legislation passed unanimously.
>>
>>
>> Justin Riemer
>> Deputy Secretary
>> Virginia State Board of Elections
>> Office Phone: (804) 864-8904
>> Mobile: (804) 366-5330
>> SBE Website: http://www.sbe.virginia.gov
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu [mailto:
>> law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu] On Behalf Of Lillie Coney
>> Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2012 1:21 PM
>> To: Lowenstein, Daniel
>> Cc: 'Doug Hess'; 'Election Law'
>> Subject: Re: [EL] deaths after voting by mail
>>
>> In my view, absentee ballots cast by persons prior to their death should
>> be treated
>> like dying declarations.
>>
>> There are very few ballots that fall into this category and their
>> treatment
>> should be with the utmost respect for the intent to the voter to have
>> their voice heard--many of them knowing that they would not see election
>> day.  The tools are available for voters to cast ballots in this method
>> and overtime states have become aware that voters who cast absentee
>> or early voting ballots can die before election day -- accidents, sudden
>> or succumbing to long term illnesses.
>>
>> It is left to each state to decide how they will deal with votes cast
>> prior to an
>> election by a person who later dies.  The only question for the process
>> is did
>> the voter cast the ballot--this is especially important for terminally
>> ill patients
>> in residential or hospice care.. This may be resolvable by a witness'
>> signature
>> preferably a medical care advocate on the exterior of the ballot
>> envelop--not
>> need to expose the ballot to a third party only the attestation that the
>> person
>> can under terms of state election law freely cast an independent ballot.
>>
>> This last suggestion is to guard against very close elections when the
>> number
>> of these ballots fall within the margin of victory.
>>
>> Lillie Coney
>>
>> On Aug 3, 2012, at 2:09 PM, Lowenstein, Daniel wrote:
>>
>> >        I am reminded of G.K. Chesterton, who observed that some
>> so-called democrats (small "d," of course) took pride in believing that
>> participation in government should not be determined by the accident of
>> birth, but went further by insisting that participation should not be
>> determined by the accident of death.
>> >
>> >             Best,
>> >
>> >             Daniel H. Lowenstein
>> >             Director, Center for the Liberal Arts and Free Institutions
>> (CLAFI)
>> >             UCLA Law School
>> >             405 Hilgard
>> >             Los Angeles, California 90095-1476
>> >             310-825-5148
>> >
>> >
>> > ________________________________
>> > From: law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu [
>> law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu] On Behalf Of Ken Mayer [
>> kmayer at polisci.wisc.edu]
>> > Sent: Friday, August 03, 2012 9:59 AM
>> > To: 'Steve Kolbert'; 'Doug Hess'
>> > Cc: 'Election Law'
>> > Subject: Re: [EL] deaths after voting by mail
>> >
>> > Short answer: not enough votes to worry about, there's nothing that
>> could be done if there were, and even if something could be done, it
>> wouldn't be right.  By any reasonable definition, a vote is a vote when it
>> is cast, no matter what happens to the voter subsequently.
>> >
>> > In Oregon, according to the Public Health division, about 2,500-2,900
>> people die in a typical month<
>> http://public.health.oregon.gov/BirthDeathCertificates/VitalStatistics/FinalData/Documents/10/deathmo.pdf>,
>> with about 98% of those deaths occurring in the voting age population<
>> http://public.health.oregon.gov/BirthDeathCertificates/VitalStatistics/FinalData/Documents/10/deathage.pdf>.
>>   Turnout as a percentage of VAP in 2008 was 63% according to Michael
>> McDonald's United States Election Project<
>> http://elections.gmu.edu/Turnout_2008G.html>.  If we assume that deaths
>> over a month are evenly distributed, and that votes are cast roughly evenly
>> over the month, that gives an estimated approximate upper limit  (back of
>> the envelope calculation; the actual numbers will be slightly different,
>> but not by enough to worry about) of the number of votes potentially cast
>> by people who died before election day as:
>> >
>> > 2,900*.98*.63*.5 = 895 votes
>> >
>> > The key quantity here isn't this number, but the margin of victory for
>> the winning candidate among these voters.  An election would have to be
>> pretty close for this to make a difference, but let's say these voters went
>> 60%-40% for a candidate in a two candidate race.  That 20% margin reduces
>> this 895 votes to 179 votes.  That could make a difference in a really
>> tight race, but there aren't many statewide races decided by this margin.
>> >
>> > But it doesn't really make any difference, because for these votes to
>> be rejected, you'd have to hang on to every vote until  you got
>> confirmation that the voter had actually died, which is not workable.
>> >
>> > This isn't different than a voter who casts a ballot on election day,
>> but who dies (or moves to another state)  before the results are certified.
>> >
>> > Ken Mayer
>> >
>> >
>> > Kenneth R. Mayer
>> > Professor, Department of Political Science
>> > Affiliate Faculty, La Follette School of Public Affairs
>> > University of Wisconsin - Madison
>> > 110 North Hall/1050 Bascom Mall
>> > Madison, WI  53706
>> > (608) 263-2286 (voice)/ (608) 265-2663 (fax)
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > From: law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu [mailto:
>> law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu] On Behalf Of Steve Kolbert
>> > Sent: Friday, August 03, 2012 11:09 AM
>> > To: Doug Hess
>> > Cc: Election Law
>> > Subject: Re: [EL] deaths after voting by mail
>> >
>> >
>> > You can find a discussion of the applicable Virginia law in Op. Va.
>> Att'y Gen. 10-104 (Oct. 26, 2010), available at
>> http://www.oag.state.va.us/Opinions%20and%20Legal%20Resources/OPINIONS/2010opns/10-104-Lind.pdf
>> >
>> > SUMMARY:
>> > When a general registrar knows an absentee voter has died prior to
>> election day, but after having voted by absentee ballot, the registrar must
>> cancel that voter's registration, and the absentee ballot should not be
>> counted; but that in those circumstances in which absentee ballots are cast
>> prior to election day in a manner by which the absentee ballot no longer
>> can be set aside, the general registrar who knows of the voter's death
>> shall cancel that voter's registration, but election officials are not
>> otherwise required to perform the impossible task of not counting the
>> deceased voter's ballot.
>> >
>> > Steve Kolbert
>> > (202) 422-2588
>> > steve.kolbert at gmail.com<mailto:steve.kolbert at gmail.com>
>> > @Pronounce_the_T
>> > On Aug 3, 2012 11:54 AM, "Doug Hess" <douglasrhess at gmail.com<mailto:
>> douglasrhess at gmail.com>> wrote:
>> >
>> > Let's say you vote by mail and then kick the bucket before ballots are
>> counted or before election day. Assuming election officials notice this
>> about you and spot your ballot, do laws or regulations address counting
>> that ballot? I assume that if you were eligible to vote when you did, that
>> dieing before ballots are counted doesn't matter.
>> >
>> > If an election is entirely by mail and you can get ballots 30 days in
>> advance (is that standard?), just how many adults go six feet under in that
>> period. I'm wondering--for Friday amusement partially--if the number or
>> percentage is enough that the dead can determine an outcome?
>> >
>> > Doug
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
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