[EL] Uh oh, Rick...

Fri Oct 24 16:41:28 PDT 2014

Thanks for the reply. (To clarify for the List, by "departed voter," I
meant dead and/or moved-out-of-state).

On Fri, Oct 24, 2014 at 7:36 PM, Rick Hasen <rhasen at law.uci.edu> wrote:

>  In actuality I have seen many more instances of the departed having votes
> cast for them via absentee ballot (usually the widow/er or child of the
> deceased) than examples of people showing up at polling places claiming to
> be a dead person. When these claims are investigated, the most common
> explanation is that a person signed on the wrong line in the poll book.
>
>
> On 10/24/14, 4:32 PM, Steve Hoersting wrote:
>
> * The last sentence means Drudge and others are getting the word out:
> There is another side to the predominant meme.
>
>  * I will check out your book (again. I skimmed parts a year ago, or so.
> Well written; again, congrats).
>
>  And a question, which you must have addressed in your book, and may hit
> out of the park, if you can: If a departed voter remains on the rolls, and
> an individual is presented to the poll worker as the listed voter, and the
> poll worker cannot or does not ask the individual for ID, how would that
> fraud be detected? By what mechanism would we ever detect *significant*
> fraudulent transactions of that kind? (Please don't say signature match).
>
>  And wouldn't vote-by-mail and absentee balloting make matching the
> departed-voter-name and a-live-ballot easy beyond words? Easy enough to
> turn battleground states across the land.
>
>  Steve
>
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 24, 2014 at 5:20 PM, Rick Hasen <rhasen at law.uci.edu> wrote:
>
>>  Not sure I understand your snark.  When I looked into the question of
>> non-citizen voting for my book, the rates of proven non-citizen voting
>> appeared very low.  Now along comes a study which has a higher number. I
>> don't have an opinion yet on how strong the study is because (1) I haven't
>> yet read it and (2) those who have much greater methodological
>> sophistication about these things than I do will surely weigh in on the
>> question. I think that is a prudent response to this study.
>>
>> In terms of outright dissembling, you can read chapter 2 of my book,
>> which gives some examples.
>>
>> I do not understand your final sentence.
>>
>> Rick
>>
>>
>>
>> On 10/24/14, 2:15 PM, Steve Hoersting wrote:
>>
>> So "new stud[ies] appear[] to find a much higher incidence of non-citizen
>> voting than you've previously seen" and you "look forward" to hearing what
>> others think of the methodology, and still you allege "outright
>> dissembling"?
>>
>>  Okay. I see. Just trying to keep up.
>>
>>  But if members of the Anti-Fraud Squad have dared dissemble, they had
>> better discover they are rapidly losing control of conventional wisdom and
>> the public debate.
>>
>>  Good weekend. Best,
>>
>>  Steve
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 24, 2014 at 4:57 PM, Rick Hasen <rhasen at law.uci.edu> wrote:
>>
>>>  I linked to the the story Drudge links to earlier today on my blog.
>>> (See the end of this message).  I have always said (and say in my book)
>>> that non-citizen voting is a real, though relatively small, problem (unlike
>>> impersonation fraud, which is essentially a blip).  For this reason I have
>>> supported efforts to remove non-citizens from voting rolls, though not in
>>> the period right before an election when errors are more likely to
>>> disenfranchise voters.
>>>
>>> The new study appears to find a much higher incidence of non-citizen
>>> voting than I've previously seen, and I look forward to hearing whether
>>> people think the methodology in this paper is sound.  But even if it is
>>> sound, this would not justify the hysteria and nonsense (and in some cases
>>> outright dissembling) coming from some of the people you have listed below.
>>>
>>> Rick
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  “Could non-citizens decide the November election?”
>>> <http://electionlawblog.org/?p=67408>
>>>
>>>  Posted on October 24, 2014 12:27 pm
>>> <http://electionlawblog.org/?p=67408> by Rick Hasen
>>> <http://electionlawblog.org/?author=3>
>>>
>>> Jesse Richman and David Earnes
>>> <http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/monkey-cage/wp/2014/10/24/could-non-citizens-decide-the-november-election/>t
>>> at the Monkey Cage with some provocative findings on the extent of
>>> non-citizen voting. I will be very interested to hear what others think of
>>> the methodology in this forthcoming article
>>> <http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0261379414000973> in
>>> Electoral Studies.
>>>  [image: Share]
>>> <https://www.addtoany.com/share_save#url=http%3A%2F%2Felectionlawblog.org%2F%3Fp%3D67408&title=%E2%80%9CCould%20non-citizens%20decide%20the%20November%20election%3F%E2%80%9D&description=>
>>>  Posted in election administration <http://electionlawblog.org/?cat=18>,
>>>  The Voting Wars <http://electionlawblog.org/?cat=60>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 10/24/14, 1:51 PM, Steve Hoersting wrote:
>>>
>>>  It's getting tougher and tougher to dismiss and discredit John Fund,
>>> Hans van Spakovsky, James O'Keefe, J. Christian Adams, Catherine
>>> Engelbrecht and Rush Limbaugh:
>>>
>>>  http://drudgereport.com/
>>>
>>>  --
>>> Stephen M. Hoersting
>>>
>>>
>>>   _______________________________________________
>>> Law-election mailing listLaw-election at department-lists.uci.eduhttp://department-lists.uci.edu/mailman/listinfo/law-election
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Rick Hasen
>>> Chancellor's Professor of Law and Political Science
>>> UC Irvine School of Law
>>> 401 E. Peltason Dr., Suite 1000
>>> Irvine, CA 92697-8000949.824.3072 - office949.824.0495 - faxrhasen at law.uci.eduhttp://www.law.uci.edu/faculty/full-time/hasen/http://electionlawblog.org
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>  --
>> Stephen M. Hoersting
>>
>>
>> --
>> Rick Hasen
>> Chancellor's Professor of Law and Political Science
>> UC Irvine School of Law
>> 401 E. Peltason Dr., Suite 1000
>> Irvine, CA 92697-8000949.824.3072 - office949.824.0495 - faxrhasen at law.uci.eduhttp://www.law.uci.edu/faculty/full-time/hasen/http://electionlawblog.org
>>
>>
>
>
>  --
> Stephen M. Hoersting
>
>
> --
> Rick Hasen
> Chancellor's Professor of Law and Political Science
> UC Irvine School of Law
> 401 E. Peltason Dr., Suite 1000
> Irvine, CA 92697-8000949.824.3072 - office949.824.0495 - faxrhasen at law.uci.eduhttp://www.law.uci.edu/faculty/full-time/hasen/http://electionlawblog.org
>
>

-- 
Stephen M. Hoersting
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