[EL] Al Jazeera America article on voter suppression

[Schultz, David A.]

Read this sentence of yours:  "I would have taken your points more to heart
if they weren’t made in a forum originating from a country where no one can
vote."  With it you simply discounted everything  I tried to argue and
which you seemed to want to agree with.  Essentially,  to use the language
of law, with this sentence you are estopped from arguing that who the
author or publisher is, they are not a factor in determining whether the
argument is cogent.  This sentence really tells me that I am dismissed
simply because of where I chose to publish.

On Wed, Oct 29, 2014 at 3:16 PM, Bill Maurer <wmaurer at ij.org> wrote:

>  Are you saying people can vote in Qatar?  I don’t get it.
>
>
>
> *From:* Schultz, David A. [mailto:dschultz at hamline.edu]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 29, 2014 1:16 PM
> *To:* Bill Maurer
> *Cc:* George Korbel; John W. Farrell; law-election at uci.edu
> *Subject:* Re: [EL] Al Jazeera America article on voter suppression
>
>
>
> Bill:
>
> Whatever good things you said in you e-mail you retracted effectively with
> your final sentence.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 29, 2014 at 3:07 PM, Bill Maurer <wmaurer at ij.org> wrote:
>
> Professor,
>
>
>
> I agree, which is why I’ve fought intrusive disclosure laws for years.
> This is not simply a question of people shouting “Koch!” or “Soros!,”
> however.  This is the outlet of a country where its citizens lack the most
> basic civil liberties.  That struck me as an unusual, and
> counterproductive, place to make an argument about the franchise and raises
> the question of why they would publish an article about problems with the
> franchise in the U.S. when they have no franchise at all in the outlet’s
> country of origin.  Note that I’ve not said that I disagree with you
> because I disagree with your position.  In fact, I’ve not said whether I
> agree or disagree, or a little of both.  In that regard, I would be
> similarly concerned with someone who is anti-regulation of campaign
> financing making an argument in any forum provided by any government that
> does not permit free and fair elections.  The state-run outlets of many
> countries may contain articles with excellent points about civil liberties
> in the U.S.—when they address the mote in their own eye, I will take those
> points more seriously.  That’s why I take articles about civil liberties in
> the CBC, the BBC, or the NHK seriously.
>
>
>
> Also, I don’t technically think that that is the ad hominem fallacy as ad
> hominem is not fallacious when it concerns actions that contradict the
> subject’s words—to use an example from formal logic class.
>
>
>
> I also share your concern with rhetoric and I assume you share my negative
> reaction to people using over-the-top phrases when discussing a complex
> topic like voting rights.
>
>
>
> In sum, I read your article about the franchise.  I would have taken your
> points more to heart if they weren’t made in a forum originating from a
> country where no one can vote.
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
>
>
> Bill
>
>
>
> *From:* Schultz, David A. [mailto:dschultz at hamline.edu]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 29, 2014 12:21 PM
> *To:* Bill Maurer
> *Cc:* George Korbel; John W. Farrell; law-election at uci.edu
> *Subject:* Re: [EL] Al Jazeera America article on voter suppression
>
>
>
> Alas, the discourse on this listserv seems no better than the dreary state
> of political debate and journalism that dominates American politics  today.
>
> Take any formal logic class or one on debating and one of the most basic
> rules is that ad hominems are not  good arguments.  By that, you do not
> refute someone's argument simply by calling them a name or by dismissing
> their position by saying that work for such and such group or are a member
> of some particular organization.  Instead, you need to specific the flaws
> in someone's argument, not impune  someone's character, to refute an
> argument.  Essentially that is what I see going on here--challenging the Al
> Jazerra  article or my op-ed by simply dismissing them by saying who they
> represent or who they are owned by.  This is such a poor way to argue.
> However, this is the sorry state of American politics, but I expect more
> from members of this listserv.
>
> One of the things so wrong with the quality of political discourse in
> America is confusing name calling, identity, or membership with logical
> reasoning.  Democrats simply dismiss claims by Republicans as wrong by
> saying what do you expect from the GOP.  Or vice-versa.  We see  people
> simply call people names or insult them, using that as the last or maybe
> first resort argument instead of engaging the debate on merits.  We teach
> our children--at least I hope we still do--that name calling is wrong.  The
> law supposedly tells us that guilt by association is wrong.  Yet there
> seems something powerful in human nature to refute by dismissal or name
> calling, and such a trend seems to be encouraged or at least dominates
> current political discourse.
>
> Over the years I have debated many people, including several on this
> listserv.    I do my best not to resort to these tactics but often see such
> reciprocity not returned either in debates with me or others.  I see simply
> dismissals or labeling used as wins to win arguments.  It reminds me when
> Lucy used to call Charlie Brown a "blockhead."  Even blockheads can be
> right and simply calling them blockheads does not win the argument.  It may
> be a lot to create enemies and polarize politics, but it is not
> constructive at all as a way to debate.  I still old-fashioned enough to
> believe in the John Stuart Mill idea that we inquiry to find the truth.
> Argument by ad hominem is not the way to do that.  Can't this listserv do
> better than that?
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 29, 2014 at 1:53 PM, Bill Maurer <wmaurer at ij.org> wrote:
>
> If this is so straightforward and objective, and the network and its
> owners are simply acting on a desire to expand the ability of people to
> vote, please point out al Jazeera pieces on the complete disenfranchisement
> of 2 million Qataris.  That would seem to be an obvious issue deserving
> attention from an internationally respected news source.
>
>
>
> I wasn’t put off by his exercise of the First Amendment, btw.  I was put
> off by the rhetoric.  I fully support any author’s First Amendment right to
> be unpersuasive.
>
>
>
> *From:* George Korbel [mailto:korbellaw at hotmail.com]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 29, 2014 11:29 AM
> *To:* Bill Maurer
> *Cc:* Greg P. Magarian; Jeff Hauser; John W. Farrell; law-election at uci.edu
>
>
> *Subject:* Re: [EL] Al Jazeera America article on voter suppression
>
>
>
> Dr Maurer
>
>
>
> Well the article of which complai was written by a professor at the
> Hamline University law school in Minneapolis. I cannot conceive of
> something that is more Apple pie than a professor at a Midwestern mid
> American twin cities law school. The author is a member of this board and
> the fact that he expressed his views in an op ed in an internationally
> respected news source hardly associates his views with a middle eastern
> royal family.   The middle west is not the Middle East.
>
>
>
> And as far as you being off put by his exercise of the first
> amendment--that is the beauty of the concept of our founding fathers.  That
> pesky first amendment sometimes puts us all off.
>
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> On Oct 29, 2014, at 12:23 PM, Bill Maurer <wmaurer at ij.org> wrote:
>
>  I also read the story.  I found it interesting but was put off by its
> editorial rhetoric.
>
>
>
> As for the independence of the stories the network runs, the Guardian
> reported on this issue recently.
>
>
>
>
> http://www.theguardian.com/media/2012/sep/30/al-jazeera-independence-questioned-qatar
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Greg P. Magarian [mailto:gpmagarian at wulaw.wustl.edu
> <gpmagarian at wulaw.wustl.edu>]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 29, 2014 9:58 AM
> *To:* Jeff Hauser; Bill Maurer
> *Cc:* John W. Farrell; law-election at uci.edu
> *Subject:* RE: [EL] Al Jazeera America article on voter suppression
>
>
>
> You’re ascribing a news story, wholesale, to the news outlet’s owners.
> The byline on the story credits Greg Palast, a U.S.-born journalist who
> primarily works in the U.K.  Palast is not a member of the Qatari monarchy.
>
>
>
> At a structural level, concerns about media ownership are, IMHO, quite
> valid.  If we’re talking about a particular story, written by a respected,
> widely-published member of a profession that prizes operational
> independence, questions based on ownership might still be valid.  But a
> question and a sweeping dismissal, entirely free of substantive analysis,
> are two different things.
>
>
>
> If you think the story is wrong on its merits, say why.  If you have a
> basis for arguing that the owners of al Jazeera exercise stifling editorial
> control over news stories, share it.  For that matter, you might explain
> why, even if we ascribe Palast’s story to the Qatari monarchy, an entity
> that doesn’t practice democracy can’t offer a useful critique of democratic
> practices.
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu [
> mailto:law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu
> <law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu>] *On Behalf Of *Jeff
> Hauser
> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 29, 2014 11:44 AM
> *To:* Bill Maurer
> *Cc:* John W. Farrell; law-election at uci.edu
> *Subject:* Re: [EL] Al Jazeera America article on voter suppression
>
>
>
>
> http://www.forbes.com/sites/kerryadolan/2011/07/11/saudi-investor-alwaleed-news-corps-news-of-the-world-was-a-rotten-apple/
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 29, 2014 at 12:38 PM, Bill Maurer <wmaurer at ij.org> wrote:
>
> The Unification Church is not a country.  The more proper analogy would be
> whether I found articles from them about theology persuasive.
>
>
>
> I would think that anybody would find it laughable to be lectured on the
> narrowness of our franchise by a media outlet owned by a royal family that
> does not permit any elections (at least as far as I can tell).  Regardless
> of where one stands on voter ID, I can’t take criticism by absolute
> monarchs on how we conduct elections seriously.
>
>
>
> *From:* John W. Farrell [mailto:jfarrell at mccandlishlawyers.com]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 29, 2014 9:25 AM
> *To:* Bill Maurer
> *Cc:* Schultz, David A.; law-election at uci.edu
> *Subject:* Re: [EL] Al Jazeera America article on voter suppression
>
>
>
> Do you ask the same question about stories in the Washington Times?
>
>
>
> *John W. Farrell *
> Attorney at Law
>
> [image: McCandlish & Lillard] <http://mccandlishlawyers.com/>
>
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> direct (703) 934-1182 | cell (703) 507-1182
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> This email is not intended, nor shall it be deemed, unless otherwise
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>
>
>
> On Oct 29, 2014, at 12:18 PM, Bill Maurer wrote:
>
>
>
> A story on voting rights from a media outlet owned by the royal family of
> Qatar raises the question of how broad was the franchise that voted them
> into office?
>
>
>
> Bill
>
>
>
> *From:* law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu [
> mailto:law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu
> <law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu>] *On Behalf Of *Schultz,
> David A.
> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 29, 2014 6:10 AM
> *To:* law-election at uci.edu
> *Subject:* [EL] Al Jazeera America article on voter suppression
>
>
>
> A good article today in  Al Jazeera America on voter suppression along
> with  my accompanying op-ed on the topic.
>
>  http://projects.aljazeera.com/2014/double-voters/index.html
>
>
> http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2014/10/2014-midterm-electionsgopvotersuppressiondemocrats.html
>
> --
>
> David Schultz, Professor
> Editor, Journal of Public Affairs Education (JPAE)
> Hamline University
> Department of Political Science
>
> 1536 Hewitt Ave
>
> MS B 1805
> St. Paul, Minnesota 55104
> 651.523.2858 (voice)
> 651.523.3170 (fax)
> http://davidschultz.efoliomn.com/
> http://works.bepress.com/david_schultz/
> http://schultzstake.blogspot.com/
> Twitter:  @ProfDSchultz
> My latest book:  Election Law and Democratic Theory, Ashgate Publishing
> http://www.ashgate.com/isbn/9780754675433
> FacultyRow SuperProfessor, 2012, 2013, 2014
>    ------------------------------
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> --
>
> David Schultz, Professor
> Editor, Journal of Public Affairs Education (JPAE)
> Hamline University
> Department of Political Science
>
> 1536 Hewitt Ave
>
> MS B 1805
> St. Paul, Minnesota 55104
> 651.523.2858 (voice)
> 651.523.3170 (fax)
> http://davidschultz.efoliomn.com/
> http://works.bepress.com/david_schultz/
> http://schultzstake.blogspot.com/
> Twitter:  @ProfDSchultz
> My latest book:  Election Law and Democratic Theory, Ashgate Publishing
> http://www.ashgate.com/isbn/9780754675433
> FacultyRow SuperProfessor, 2012, 2013, 2014
>    ------------------------------
>
>
> Spam
> Not spam
> Forget previous vote
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> David Schultz, Professor
> Editor, Journal of Public Affairs Education (JPAE)
> Hamline University
> Department of Political Science
>
> 1536 Hewitt Ave
>
> MS B 1805
> St. Paul, Minnesota 55104
> 651.523.2858 (voice)
> 651.523.3170 (fax)
> http://davidschultz.efoliomn.com/
> http://works.bepress.com/david_schultz/
> http://schultzstake.blogspot.com/
> Twitter:  @ProfDSchultz
> My latest book:  Election Law and Democratic Theory, Ashgate Publishing
> http://www.ashgate.com/isbn/9780754675433
> FacultyRow SuperProfessor, 2012, 2013, 2014
>    ------------------------------
>
>
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-- 
David Schultz, Professor
Editor, Journal of Public Affairs Education (JPAE)
Hamline University
Department of Political Science
1536 Hewitt Ave
MS B 1805
St. Paul, Minnesota 55104
651.523.2858 (voice)
651.523.3170 (fax)
http://davidschultz.efoliomn.com/
http://works.bepress.com/david_schultz/
http://schultzstake.blogspot.com/
Twitter:  @ProfDSchultz
My latest book:  Election Law and Democratic Theory, Ashgate Publishing
http://www.ashgate.com/isbn/9780754675433
FacultyRow SuperProfessor, 2012, 2013, 2014
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