[EL] A 16 year old voted?
Margaret Groarke
margaret.groarke at manhattan.edu
Sat Nov 28 12:28:12 PST 2015
In NYC's Participatory Budgeting process, anyone over 16 may vote.
On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 4:46 PM, Josh Douglas <joshuadouglas at uky.edu> wrote:
> Just to add to this discussion of lowering the voting age, I just learned
> that Cambridge is having a Participatory Budgeting election where anyone 12
> and over may vote. See here:
> http://prawfsblawg.blogs.com/prawfsblawg/2015/11/even-12-year-olds-can-vote.html
>
> Now back to some turkey and apple pie leftovers!
>
> On Thu, Nov 19, 2015 at 9:50 AM, Rob Richie <rr at fairvote.org> wrote:
>
>> Thought I'd share that in the United Kingdom, the House of Lords voted to
>> extend voting rights to 16-year-olds for the upcoming EU referendum. Still
>> needs to be negotiated with the House of Commons. See
>>
>> http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/politics/supporters-giving-vote-16-plus-10465654
>>
>> This was done for the independence referendum in Scotland, and the very
>> positive reaction to how it went contributed to Scottish parliament (with
>> approval of David Cameron's government) to vote unanimously to make it a
>> permanent change for all future Scottish elections.
>>
>> Rob Richie
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 17, 2015 at 5:26 PM, Carl Klarner <carl.klarner at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi David,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks for the interesting discussion about lowering the voting age.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Reducing the voting age would plausibly have consequences for the
>>> political power of racial/ethnic minorities, and for the political power of
>>> those in poverty.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> For every age bracket you go down, the poverty rate goes up.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> According to the 2014 American Community Survey 1-year average, the
>>> poverty rate for 16-17 year olds was 18.3%, while the poverty rate for
>>> those 18 and over was 13.6%. (The poverty rate for 15 and under was
>>> 22.1%) These statistics are based on computations from Table B17001.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> To a large extent this is an aspect of race / ethnicity being correlated
>>> with poverty, but even among non-Latino whites, 11.4% of 16-17 year olds
>>> were in poverty, while 10.3 of those 18 and over were. (13.2% of those 15
>>> and under were in poverty.) These statistics are based on computations
>>> from Tables B17001 and B17001H.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> (I couldn't find age, poverty status, and citizenship status breakdowns
>>> on the Census site.)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Next, among citizens, children are much more likely to be non-white or
>>> white and Latino than adults. Among citizen children (age 17 and under),
>>> 47.3% are either non-white or Latino (or both). Among citizen adults,
>>> 30.3% are either non-white or Latino. These statistics are based on
>>> computations from Tables B05003 and B05003H. (I couldn’t find breakdowns
>>> by smaller age brackets for citizen/non-citizen, and race/ethnicity.)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Carl
>>>
>>> On Fri, Nov 13, 2015 at 12:57 PM, Kogan, Vladimir <kogan.18 at osu.edu>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> This seems to speak more to arbitrary nature of the age of consent laws
>>>> rather than the wisdom of allowing 16- and 17-year olds to vote. So the
>>>> tension could be easily resolved by lowering the age of consent laws to 16
>>>> (as a plurality of states have already done).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *From:* law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu [mailto:
>>>> law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu] *On Behalf Of *George
>>>> Waters
>>>> *Sent:* Friday, November 13, 2015 12:29 PM
>>>> *To:* Green, Rebecca; law-election at uci.edu
>>>>
>>>> *Cc:* Hamilton, Vivian E
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [EL] A 16 year old voted?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In California, the age of consent to sexual intercourse is 18.
>>>> Allowing 16- and 17-year olds to vote would seem to create a tension with
>>>> the statutory rape law.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> George Waters
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *From:* law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu [
>>>> mailto:law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu
>>>> <law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu>] *On Behalf Of *Green,
>>>> Rebecca
>>>> *Sent:* Friday, November 13, 2015 6:41 AM
>>>> *To:* law-election at uci.edu
>>>> *Cc:* Hamilton, Vivian E
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [EL] A 16 year old voted?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> My colleague at William & Mary Law School, Vivian Hamilton, has written
>>>> thoughtfully on this issue. See, Vivian Hamilton, "Democratic Inclusion,
>>>> Cognitive Development, and the Age of Electoral Majority," 77 *Brooklyn
>>>> L. Rev*. 1 (2012), available here
>>>> <http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2086875>. She sets
>>>> voting age norms in a global context; reviews neuroscience literature’s
>>>> contribution to cognitive competencies of mid-adolescents; and concludes
>>>> that, absent other legitimate bases for exclusion, the democratic
>>>> presumption of inclusion obliges a downward adjustment to the age of
>>>> electoral majority.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Rebecca
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Rebecca Green
>>>>
>>>> Professor of Practice
>>>>
>>>> Co-Director, Election Law Program
>>>>
>>>> William & Mary Law School
>>>>
>>>> 757-221-3851
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *From: *<law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu> on behalf of
>>>> Josh Douglas <joshuadouglas at uky.edu>
>>>> *Date: *Friday, November 13, 2015 at 12:22 AM
>>>> *To: *Rob Richie <rr at fairvote.org>
>>>> *Cc: *"law-election at uci.edu" <law-election at uci.edu>
>>>> *Subject: *Re: [EL] A 16 year old voted?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Spurred by this conversation, and the fact that I am guest blogging on
>>>> PrawfsBlawg this month, I just posted some initial thoughts from my
>>>> research into this question of municipalities lowering the voting age, and
>>>> local ordinances on the right to vote more generally. You can find it
>>>> here
>>>> <http://prawfsblawg.blogs.com/prawfsblawg/2015/11/should-16-and-17-year-olds-be-allowed-to-vote.html>.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In particular, the post highlights the main thesis of this
>>>> work-in-progress: "localism is perhaps the best path for broader change on
>>>> voting rights, given that historically, expansion of the right to vote has
>>>> come through piecemeal, local rules. Therefore, municipalities should
>>>> enact local laws expanding the franchise, which will have a significant
>>>> effect in the long run in both securing voting rights for more people and
>>>> making our democracy stronger nationwide."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Josh
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 10:17 PM, Rob Richie <rr at fairvote.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> FairVote collects various resources on the issue here, including links
>>>> to info from other groups working on it. It includes good evidence about
>>>> how 16 is a better age for a "first vote" than 18 or 19 due to greater
>>>> likelihood of the citizen being in a community they know and supportive
>>>> environment (school, family, peers). It also has a link to an important
>>>> report from Scotland about its introduction there in the independence
>>>> referendum that looks at the evidence rigorously and contributed to both
>>>> Scotland voting unanimously to extend it to all elections and the UK
>>>> seemingly heading toward 16-year-olds voting in the referendum on the EU.
>>>> See
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://www.fairvote.org/reforms/right-to-vote-amendment/lowering-the-voting-age/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Note that some studies suggest that someone who can first vote when
>>>> exactly 18 is more likely to vote than someone who can first vote when 18
>>>> and a month, and so on with decreasing rates for several years -- this
>>>> underscores the point about having a lower voting age will increase turnout
>>>> in "first vote opportunities" and studies show that this in turn
>>>> contributes toward greater likelihood to vote over time.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Some folks may be interested to know many states allow citizens who
>>>> have relatively recently turned 17 to help choose our next president in
>>>> primaries. See states with 17-year-old primary voting here.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://www.fairvote.org/reforms/universal-voter-registration/17-year-old-primary-voting-2/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 9:04 PM, Josh Douglas <joshuadouglas at uky.edu>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Prior to the discussion on this list serv, I had began a new project on
>>>> the "local right to vote," looking at various franchise-enhancing measures
>>>> that have passed at the municipal level. This follows on my work on the U.S.
>>>> constitutional right to vote
>>>> <http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1079895> and state
>>>> constitutional right to vote
>>>> <http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2234762>. My
>>>> research so far is preliminary, and it will look at 16- and 17-year old
>>>> voting, non-citizen voting, and the like. I have not found any legal
>>>> scholarship on the topic, but there have been various news stories about
>>>> the two Maryland towns that have lowered the voting age, as well as a few
>>>> cities (including San Francisco) debating the issue. Here are some
>>>> relevant links:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Maryland towns:
>>>> http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/10/us/politics/students-in-maryland-test-civic-participation-and-win-right-to-vote.html?_r=0
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Proposal in San Francisco:
>>>> http://archives.sfexaminer.com/sanfrancisco/youths-seek-to-lower-voting-age-to-16-in-sf/Content?oid=2916012
>>>>
>>>> But won’t be on ballot until at least 2016:
>>>> http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Plan-to-allow-16-year-olds-to-vote-won-t-be-on-6314581.php
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> DC proposal to allow 16-year-olds to vote in presidential elections:
>>>> https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/dc-politics/16-year-olds-in-dc-could-vote-for-president-in-2016-under-proposal/2015/11/03/3175fede-825d-11e5-8ba6-cec48b74b2a7_story.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There is also some scholarship among family scholars about allowing
>>>> "children" to vote, but no systematic analysis on voting and elections, as
>>>> far as I can tell. (I don't know if there are any political science
>>>> studies on the topic.)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Give me a few months and I'll have something more advanced for you!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Josh
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Joshua A. Douglas
>>>>
>>>> Robert G. Lawson & William H. Fortune Associate Professor of Law
>>>>
>>>> University of Kentucky College of Law
>>>>
>>>> 620 S. Limestone
>>>>
>>>> Lexington, KY 40506
>>>>
>>>> (859) 257-4935
>>>>
>>>> joshuadouglas at uky.edu
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 7:04 PM, David Adamany <adamany at temple.edu>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I was not aware until today's postings of serious discussion to lower
>>>> the voting age to 16. Can anyone point me to a reliable summary of the
>>>> activities and arguments surrounding this issue?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> My initial reaction is to wonder about the political atmosphere for
>>>> such a change. When Congress voted to submit the 26th Amendment to the
>>>> states we have a very large number of veterans who had gone to war when
>>>> there was a draft. (Some veterans volunteered of course, but most, I
>>>> believe, were draftees.) Those would have been veterans of World War I,
>>>> World War II, the Korean War, and the war in Viet Nam. And my rough
>>>> estimate of their number (subject to correction by more knowledgeable
>>>> readers) was between 21 and 24 million. A great many would have been
>>>> under 21 years of age at the time they were drafted or volunteered (but all
>>>> would have been over 18). Hence, the argument: old enough to fight, old
>>>> enough to vote.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What might be the constituency for a 16-year old vote that would have
>>>> the natural appeal to Congress and the public?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And has anyone given thought to just how many people would be added to
>>>> the electorate and how many to the actual vote by such a change. My
>>>> initial reaction was that parents who vote regularly would be most likely
>>>> to facilitate the registration of their 16 and 17 year old children. On
>>>> second thought, it occurred to me that voter registration among that age
>>>> cohort might be much larger than at 18 years old because registration would
>>>> be very likely to occur in high schools.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> A final thought: If registration were quite high, for the reason
>>>> above, would voting also be considerably higher than among 18 to 22 year
>>>> olds? The latter group are often on the move residentially and hence do
>>>> not register to vote. The younger cohort, by contrast, are more likely to
>>>> be residentially stable and hence not to be disqualified from voting by
>>>> various registration requirements. Moreover, to the extent that school
>>>> buildings are still the site of polling places in many communities, 16 and
>>>> 17 year olds might have a quite high turnout rate as compared to those
>>>> slightly older. If these many surmises are correct, there would be
>>>> increased potential for changed election results.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I am utterly devoid of evidence on these matters, but the thought of a
>>>> 16 old vote rule certainly provokes my speculative tendencies.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Can anyone suggest some serious study of any of those issues: the
>>>> seriousness of the prospects for such a change, the effect on voter
>>>> registration and turnout, and the potential impact on election outcomes?
>>>> I'm sure that members of state legislatures and Congress will be alert to
>>>> such implications and will, at the same time, not be faced with the "old
>>>> enough to fight, old enough to vote" pressures that surrounded the 26th
>>>> Amendment.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> David Adamany
>>>>
>>>> Laura Carnell Professor of Law
>>>>
>>>> and Political Science, and
>>>>
>>>> Chancellor
>>>>
>>>> 1810 Liacouras Walk, Ste 330
>>>>
>>>> Temple University
>>>>
>>>> Philadelphia, PA 19122
>>>>
>>>> (215) 204-9278
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> David Adamany
>>>>
>>>> Laura Carnell Professor of Law
>>>>
>>>> and Political Science, and
>>>>
>>>> Chancellor
>>>>
>>>> 1810 Liacouras Walk, Ste 330
>>>>
>>>> Temple University
>>>>
>>>> Philadelphia, PA 19122
>>>>
>>>> (215) 204-9278
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Law-election mailing list
>>>> Law-election at department-lists.uci.edu
>>>> http://department-lists.uci.edu/mailman/listinfo/law-election
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Law-election mailing list
>>>> Law-election at department-lists.uci.edu
>>>> http://department-lists.uci.edu/mailman/listinfo/law-election
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>> Rob Richie
>>>> Executive Director, FairVote
>>>> 6930 Carroll Avenue, Suite 240
>>>> Takoma Park, MD 20912
>>>> rr at fairvote.org (301) 270-4616 http://www.fairvote.org
>>>> *FairVote Facebook <https://www.facebook.com/FairVoteReform>* *FairVote
>>>> Twitter <https://twitter.com/fairvote>* My Twitter
>>>> <https://twitter.com/rob_richie>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *Thank you for considering a donation <http://www.fairvote.org/donate>
>>>> <http://www.fairvote.org/donate>to support our **reform vision*
>>>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U50uJohIw4c>*. *
>>>>
>>>> *(Note: Our Combined Federal Campaign number is 10132.)*
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Joshua A. Douglas
>>>>
>>>> Robert G. Lawson & William H. Fortune Associate Professor of Law
>>>>
>>>> University of Kentucky College of Law
>>>>
>>>> 620 S. Limestone
>>>>
>>>> Lexington, KY 40506
>>>>
>>>> (859) 257-4935
>>>>
>>>> joshuadouglas at uky.edu
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Dr. Carl Klarner
>>>
>>> Academic / Political Consultant
>>>
>>> Klarnerpolitics.com
>>>
>>> Former Associate Professor of Political Science
>>>
>>> Carl.Klarner at gmail.com
>>>
>>> Cell: 812-514-9060
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> Rob Richie
>> Executive Director, FairVote
>> 6930 Carroll Avenue, Suite 240
>> Takoma Park, MD 20912
>> rr at fairvote.org (301) 270-4616 http://www.fairvote.org
>> *FairVote Facebook <https://www.facebook.com/FairVoteReform>* *FairVote
>> Twitter <https://twitter.com/fairvote>* My Twitter
>> <https://twitter.com/rob_richie>
>>
>> Thank you for considering a *donation <http://www.fairvote.org/donate>*
>> <http://www.fairvote.org/donate>to support our reform vision
>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U50uJohIw4c>.
>> (Note: Our Combined Federal Campaign number is 10132.)
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Law-election mailing list
>> Law-election at department-lists.uci.edu
>> http://department-lists.uci.edu/mailman/listinfo/law-election
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Joshua A. Douglas
> Robert G. Lawson & William H. Fortune Associate Professor of Law
> University of Kentucky College of Law
> 620 S. Limestone
> Lexington, KY 40506
> (859) 257-4935
> joshuadouglas at uky.edu
>
> _______________________________________________
> Law-election mailing list
> Law-election at department-lists.uci.edu
> http://department-lists.uci.edu/mailman/listinfo/law-election
>
--
*Margaret Groarke*
*Associate Professor, Government*
Riverdale, NY 10471
Phone: 718-862-7943
Fax: 718-862-8044
margaret.groarke at manhattan.edu <name.name at manhattan.edu>
www.manhattan.edu
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