[EL] Quick question about provisional voting in California and Oregon
D. A. Holtzman
d at LAvoteFIRE.org
Tue Aug 18 13:51:15 PDT 2020
Voters who received Vote-by-Mail (VBM, mail-in, or absentee) ballots in
the mail could get regular ballots at the polls if no VBM ballots are
counted before the polls close on election day.Verifying signatures on
VBM return envelopes in advance (and notifying senders of their receipt
or rejection) would be ok, but each VBM return envelope would have to be
checked against a list (when available) of all voters who voted at the
polls, to determine whether the ballot inside should be counted.
I say this because a poll worker in Los Angeles County was willing to
give me a regular ballot for the March primary without my surrendering
my VBM ballot.So I thought maybe they were doing things as described above.
Or maybe the worker’s screen told him my VBM ballot hadn’t been
received, and his input into the system (about me receiving a regular
ballot) would prevent my VBM ballot from being counted if it arrived
later, or had already arrived and was checked in later.That would
require real-time updating of electronic records accessible at the polls
and where VBM envelopes are processed or, if that is not practical or
reliable, pausing VBM envelope processing while polls are open and until
the day’s at-polls voting lists are logged in and accessible at the
processing location.
Either way, voters who were sent VBM ballots who haven’t returned them
could get regular, not provisional, ballots at the polls.
The best practice, to make things consistent and understandable to all,
may be to not count VBM (or dropped-off absentee) ballots at all until
after at-polls voting is over for the entire election and the envelope
processing system (machine or human) knows who has voted at the
polls.(Incidentally, that would facilitate the “last vote counts” idea
Dan mentioned below.)
- dah
On 8/17/2020 3:55 PM, Dan Meek wrote:
> Oregon has a "first vote counts" system. In Oregon, the government
> mails ballots to all registered voters. If a voter returns a ballot
> to the county election office, either through the mail or drop box,
> that voter is done. There is no way to change the vote, even if the
> voter realizes that he has made an error.
>
> A voter can obtain a second ballot by stating that the first one has
> been lost. But, if the first ballot actually arrives at a county
> election office anytime before 8 pm on election night, that is the
> vote that counts, and the second ballot is not counted.
>
> And Oregon does not have polling places, except for one Election
> Office in each of its 36 counties. Even if a voter goes to a county
> elections office and obtains a second ballot, the first ballot is the
> one that counts, if it is received by the elections office by 8 pm on
> election day.
>
> I have suggested that the system be changed so that the "last vote
> counts" instead of the "first vote vounts."
>
> Dan Meek
>
> 503-293-9021 dan at meek.net <mailto:dan at meek.net> 855-280-0488 fax
>
>
>
>
> On 8/17/2020 3:03 PM, Pedro Hernandez wrote:
>> To add to what Justin and Lisa have said ...
>>
>> In June, post governor's executive order, the CA SoS has provided
>> some guidance non-VCA/VCA counties:
>> https://elections.cdn.sos.ca.gov/ccrov/pdf/2020/june/20135jl.pdf (see
>> page 2, Voting Opportunities, In-Person voting opportunities) --
>> non-VCA counties are to provide at least one polling place (it then
>> clarifies that it means a Vote Center) per 10k registered voters.
>>
>> There are a lot of reasons why a person might want to vote in person
>> instead of VBM, which they are allowed to do. A voter might have made
>> a mistake on their ballot, so they might want to surrender their
>> ballot and vote in person if there isn't enough time to have a new
>> ballot mailed to them. Remember, HAVA requires machines to notify
>> voters of an overvote
>> <https://www.sos.ca.gov/elections/help-america-vote-act/hava-state-plan-2003/section-1/>
>> .... envelopes can't do that -- so my advice has been that voters
>> should make a plan, and double check their ballots for errors. In my
>> limited study of SF elections, most overvotes during our odd-year
>> election occurred via VBM ballots.
>>
>> I haven't seen any language that modifies § 3015
>> <https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displayText.xhtml?lawCode=ELEC&division=3.&title=&part=&chapter=1.&article=> (a
>> VBM voter can cast a nonprovisional ballot if they surrender their
>> VBM ballot, and there are a few more exceptions listed in 3015 and
>> explained below in the SoS poll worker training standards
>> <https://www.sos.ca.gov/elections/voting-resources/voting-california/help-strengthen-our-democracy/poll-worker-info/poll-worker-training-standards/section-three/>.
>>
>>
>> Hope that's helpful.
>> - Pedro
>>
>> --------------
>> from
>> https://www.sos.ca.gov/elections/voting-resources/voting-california/help-strengthen-our-democracy/poll-worker-info/poll-worker-training-standards/section-three/
>>
>>
>> Vote-by-Mail Voting
>>
>> * Vote-by-mail voters have three options if they decide not to mail
>> their ballots in. They can:
>> 1. 1. Turn in the voted vote-by-mail ballot in person to the
>> office of the elections official, any polling place in the
>> state, a vote center, a vote-by-mail drop-off location, or a
>> drop box on or before 8:00 p.m. on election day. (§§
>> 2300(a)(7), 3020, 14212);
>> 2. 2. Appear at their designated polling place on Election Day,
>> or appear at a vote center or the regular or satellite office
>> of their elections official and,
>> o • Vote a nonprovisional ballot if either of the following
>> conditions is satisfied (§ 3015):
>> + (a) The voter surrenders their vote-by-mail ballot, or
>> + (b) The voter is unable to surrender their
>> vote-by-mail ballot, but the precinct board, vote
>> center election board, or elections official does all
>> of the following:
>> # (i)Verifies that the voter has not returned his
>> or her voted vote-by-mail ballot, and
>> # (ii)Notates the voter’s voter record to ensure
>> that the voter’s vote-by-mail ballot is not cast
>> or tabulated after they vote at the polls.
>> o • Vote a provisional ballot if (§§ 3016, 14310(f)):
>> + (a) The voter is unable to surrender their
>> vote-by-mail ballot and
>> + (b) The precinct board, vote center election board,
>> or elections official cannot:
>> # (i) Verify if the voter has returned their voted
>> vote-by-mail ballot, and
>> # (i) Verify if the voter has returned their voted
>> vote-by-mail ballot, and
>> # -OR-
>> # (iii) The voter is unable to surrender their
>> vote-by-mail ballot and the precinct board or
>> elections official (in a non-VCA county) cannot
>> readily determine if the voter is in the correct
>> polling location.
>> * It is not uncommon for a voter to receive a vote-by-mail ballot
>> in the mail, then either forget to mail it back before Election
>> Day or decide to hand-deliver it to the polls. Poll workers must
>> be informed they must accept any vote-by- mail ballot issued to
>> any voter in the state, either from the voter or from a
>> designated third party delivering it for the voter. County
>> elections officials will sort those vote by mail ballots into the
>> proper precinct or forward them to the appropriate California
>> county election official. Designated third parties are any person
>> who is not compensated based on the number of ballots returned if
>> the voter requested and received their ballot under late
>> vote-by-mail conditions (7 or fewer days before Election Day),
>> the voter can authorize any person to return the ballot for them.
>> (§§ 3017, 3021)
>> * Sometimes voters change their minds and want to vote at the polls
>> instead of by mail. Poll workers should be taught how to handle
>> surrendered vote-by-mail ballots brought in by these voters. Poll
>> workers should be trained how to record and handle voted and
>> surrendered vote-by-mail ballots (surrendered vote-by-mail ballot
>> will not be counted), where to store them, and how they should be
>> handled after the polls close. (§§ 3015, 3017)
>> * In the event a vote-by-mail voter does not sign his or her
>> vote-by-mail envelope, the voter may fill out and timely return
>> an “Unsigned Ballot Envelope Statement” to the elections
>> official, which includes a polling place and a ballot dropoff
>> box. The elections officials should provide “Unsigned Ballot
>> Envelope Statement” forms at all polling places for use by
>> voters. (§ 3019)
>> * When processing voted vote-by-mail ballots, elections officials
>> are required to compare the signature on the return envelope
>> against the signature(s) of the voter in the voter’s record. If
>> the signatures do not match, the elections officials must notify
>> the voter, who may submit a “Signature Verification Statement” to
>> verify (cure) his or her signature before certification of the
>> election. The “Signature Verification Statement” must be timely
>> returned to the elections official, which includes a polling
>> place and a ballot dropoff box. The elections official should
>> provide “Signature Verification Statement” forms at all polling
>> places for use by voters. (§ 3019)
>>
>>
>> Pedro Hernandez
>> Pronouns: He/Him/His
>> Senior Policy Coordinator, Voting Rights & Ranked Choice Voting
>> http://fairvote.org
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 2:32 PM Levitt, Justin <justin.levitt at lls.edu
>> <mailto:justin.levitt at lls.edu>> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks, Lisa, for the clarification.
>>
>> For those following the bouncing balls, I _believe_ this means
>> that voters in California counties with vote centers, as long as
>> the e-pollbooks at those vote centers are working, those voting
>> in person will usually get a “regular” ballot. The only time
>> those voters get a provisional is if they’re not on the rolls, or
>> if records show they have actually returned a mail ballot
>> already. (If a mail ballot arrives at the county after a voter
>> has already voted the regular ballot in person, the mail ballot
>> will not count.)
>>
>> And for those voting in counties with traditional polling places,
>> I believe those voting in person can get a regular ballot by
>> surrendering their mail ballot. Those who do not surrender their
>> mail ballot will vote a provisional.
>>
>> Given how many voters live in VCA counties, as Lisa says, I think
>> that means the answer to Nate’s question is that most California
>> voters who choose to vote in person will not be casting
>> provisional ballots.
>>
>> And given the confusion (and the natural desire to facilitate
>> information about “how it works in California” based on personal
>> experience in one county), that speaks to the immense importance
>> of communication to voters
>> <https://redistricting.lls.edu/other/Levitt%20USCCR%20testimony%2020200708.pdf#page=16>
>> about how the process works for them – not just in California,
>> but everywhere. That’s best done locally by county
>> administrators, who can speak to voters in their county without
>> the all of the different combinations state officials may have to
>> account for. And _that_ brings me back to the familiar issue on
>> this listserv of needing to make sure that the counties get the
>> funding they’ve been begging for, to make that communication
>> possible.
>>
>> Justin
>>
>> *From:*Law-election
>> <law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu
>> <mailto:law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu>> *On
>> Behalf Of *Lisa Bryant
>> *Sent:* Monday, August 17, 2020 1:45 PM
>> *To:* Douglas Johnson <djohnson at ndcresearch.com
>> <mailto:djohnson at ndcresearch.com>>
>> *Cc:* Election Law Listserv <law-election at uci.edu
>> <mailto:law-election at uci.edu>>
>> *Subject:* Re: [EL] Quick question about provisional voting in
>> California
>>
>> Yes, "most counties" did not receive ballots automatically, but
>> about 50% of CA voters lived in a VCA county where they
>> automatically received a ballot in the mail for the primary
>> election this year. In those counties, if they didn't take their
>> ballot to the vote center with them the vote center printed a new
>> ballot and voided the mailed ballot. They did not have to vote
>> provisionally.
>>
>> Even prior to VCA, over 60% of registered voters in CA were
>> registered for permanent absentee ballots, as high as 75% in some
>> counties. CA also has a couple of counties that are were
>> exclusively VBM prior to VCA due to small populations and their
>> rural nature. CA, as a whole, is pretty familiar with VBM and
>> absentee ballots.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Lisa
>>
>> Lisa Bryant, Ph.D.
>>
>> Associate Professor, Department of Political Science
>>
>> Survey Director, Institute for Leadership and Public Policy
>>
>> California State University, Fresno
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 1:28 PM Douglas Johnson
>> <djohnson at ndcresearch.com <mailto:djohnson at ndcresearch.com>> wrote:
>>
>> But that primary was an election where in most counties you
>> actively requested a ballot (either for that election or as a
>> permanent absentee). This November election millions will get
>> mail ballots they never requested - will they know to bring
>> them with them to surrender?
>>
>> Eric McGhee or Thad Kousser (or anyone from that team), has
>> your research with the early “Vote Center” counties shown any
>> indications of how much this is an issue?
>>
>> - Doug
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 12:04 PM Pamela S Karlan
>> <pkarlan at stanford.edu <mailto:pkarlan at stanford.edu>> wrote:
>>
>> Dear Fred and Nate,
>>
>> If the primary is any indication, at my polling place, it
>> seemed that most of us who were voting in person _did_
>> hand in our VBM ballot.
>>
>> It's interesting that the Secretary of State's website
>> doesn't say anything about this.:
>> https://www.sos.ca.gov/elections/voting-info/ways-vote/
>>
>> Pamela S. Karlan
>>
>> Kenneth and Harle Montgomery Professor of Public Interest Law
>>
>> Co-Director, Supreme Court Litigation Clinic
>>
>> Stanford Law School
>>
>> karlan at stanford.edu <mailto:karlan at stanford.edu>
>>
>> 650-725-4851
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> *From:*Law-election
>> <law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu
>> <mailto:law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu>>
>> on behalf of Fredric Woocher <fwoocher at strumwooch.com
>> <mailto:fwoocher at strumwooch.com>>
>> *Sent:* Monday, August 17, 2020 11:52 AM
>> *To:* Nate Persily <npersily at law.stanford.edu
>> <mailto:npersily at law.stanford.edu>>; Election Law
>> Listserv <law-election at uci.edu <mailto:law-election at uci.edu>>
>> *Subject:* Re: [EL] Quick question about provisional
>> voting in California
>>
>> Nate,
>>
>> I do not know the answer for certain, but unless the
>> voter hands in the unvoted VBM ballot, I don’t see how it
>> could be otherwise. For those counties that will still
>> be using traditional polling places, there is no other
>> way for the pollworkers to know whether the voted VBM has
>> already been returned prior to casting a ballot at the
>> polling place.
>>
>> I believe some counties that have the ability to use
>> electronic polling books, with real-time countywide
>> information on who has voted and by what means, may be
>> able to avoid the use of provisional ballots, but I don’t
>> see how that can be avoided in other counties.
>>
>> And this has the potential to introduce an additional
>> grounds for invalidating the voted ballot, because many
>> people forget to sign their provisional ballots in every
>> election.
>>
>> Fredric D. Woocher
>>
>> Strumwasser & Woocher LLP
>>
>> 10940 Wilshire Blvd., Ste. 2000
>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/10940+Wilshire+Blvd.,+Ste.+2000+%0D%0A+%0D%0A+Los+Angeles,+CA+90024?entry=gmail&source=g>
>>
>> Los Angeles, CA 90024
>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/10940+Wilshire+Blvd.,+Ste.+2000+%0D%0A+%0D%0A+Los+Angeles,+CA+90024?entry=gmail&source=g>
>>
>> fwoocher at strumwooch.com <mailto:fwoocher at strumwooch.com>
>>
>> (310) 576-1233 x105
>>
>> *_IMPORTANT NOTICE_**:*Pursuant to the Governor’s “Stay
>> at Home” Order, Strumwasser & Woocher LLP is CLOSED TO
>> THE PUBLIC. *_Packages requiring signatures will be
>> returned undelivered – do not serve papers by this
>> method_.* While our office is closed, *Strumwasser &
>> Woocher LLP consents to electronic service in all of its
>> matters*. Please serve by electronic mail to
>> fwoocher at strumwooch.com
>> <mailto:fwoocher at strumwooch.com>AND to our Senior Legal
>> Assistant, LaKeitha Oliver, at loliver at strumwooch.com
>> <mailto:loliver at strumwooch.com>. We reserve the right to
>> object to any notice or delivery of any kind if not
>> actually received by counsel before all statutory deadlines.
>>
>> *From:*Law-election
>> [mailto:law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu
>> <mailto:law-election-bounces at department-lists.uci.edu>]
>> *On Behalf Of *Nate Persily
>> *Sent:* Monday, August 17, 2020 11:45 AM
>> *To:* Election Law Listserv <law-election at uci.edu
>> <mailto:law-election at uci.edu>>
>> *Subject:* [EL] Quick question about provisional voting
>> in California
>>
>> Does anyone know if the voters who will choose to vote in
>> person in California this November will need to vote a
>> provisional ballot? That is, given that all active
>> registrants will receive ballots in the mail, will those
>> who opt for polling places necessarily be casting a
>> provisional ballot, rather than a "normal" ballot?
>>
>> ----------------
>>
>> Nate Persily
>>
>> James B. McClatchy Professor of Law
>> Stanford Law School
>> 559 Nathan Abbott Way
>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/559+Nathan+Abbott+Way+%0D%0A+Stanford,+CA+94305-8610?entry=gmail&source=g>
>> Stanford, CA 94305-8610
>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/559+Nathan+Abbott+Way+%0D%0A+Stanford,+CA+94305-8610?entry=gmail&source=g>
>> (917) 570-3223
>> npersily at stanford.edu <mailto:npersily at stanford.edu>
>>
>> www.persily.com <http://www.persily.com/>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Law-election mailing list
>> Law-election at department-lists.uci.edu
>> <mailto:Law-election at department-lists.uci.edu>
>> https://department-lists.uci.edu/mailman/listinfo/law-election
>>
>> --
>>
>> Douglas Johnson
>> National Demographics Corporation
>> djohnson at NDCresearch.com <mailto:djohnson at NDCresearch.com>
>> phone 310-200-2058
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Law-election mailing list
>> Law-election at department-lists.uci.edu
>> <mailto:Law-election at department-lists.uci.edu>
>> https://department-lists.uci.edu/mailman/listinfo/law-election
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Law-election mailing list
>> Law-election at department-lists.uci.edu
>> <mailto:Law-election at department-lists.uci.edu>
>> https://department-lists.uci.edu/mailman/listinfo/law-election
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Law-election mailing list
>> Law-election at department-lists.uci.edu
>> https://department-lists.uci.edu/mailman/listinfo/law-election
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Law-election mailing list
> Law-election at department-lists.uci.edu
> https://department-lists.uci.edu/mailman/listinfo/law-election
--
Simple Instant Runoff Election Ballot
Candidates you want to vote for, in the order you prefer them:
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
(...)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://webshare.law.ucla.edu/Listservs/law-election/attachments/20200818/e04d9e0e/attachment.html>
View list directory